How to Woodwind

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How to Woodwind

Postby Dr_Dissonance » 15 Aug 2012 09:49

Fluffatun asked me to explain how to woodwind, so I wrote this little thing up.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1149 ... plGlw/edit

USE MORE WOODWINDS PEOPLE!!!

Also, enjoy.
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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby Kopachris » 15 Aug 2012 10:17

Ahem...



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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby CaptainFluffatun » 15 Aug 2012 11:37

Thank you SO much for this, Doctor! Since you brought up woodwinds, I'd been meaning to implement them, but didn't really know how they should be used. This is a tremendous help, and I really cannot thank you enough c:
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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby Lavender_Harmony » 15 Aug 2012 12:54

Very well put together little guide. There is one thing you should have mentioned though. You generally shouldn't double up things like flute/oboe, clarinet/bassoon. Tonally they clash, and will drift around one another, cancelling each other out if they play the same notes. Flute and Clarinet, Oboe and Bassoon are obvious choices. Some more detail on horn use would be nice, as well as a comparison between french horn and english horn, detailing their differences and why they're different, to prevent confusion :>
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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby WavesOfParadox » 15 Aug 2012 12:59

Thank you for this!
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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby Fimbulin » 15 Aug 2012 16:42

I got a kick out of this document earlier today. Hilarious and very well put together.

Most woodwinds cannot go very low without sounding very breathy or belching their notes; when I want to woodwind, I tend to use mostly just flutes, clarinets, and piccolos- focusing on their sweet high-range tones.
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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby Overkillius » 15 Aug 2012 17:32

Great guide! I can't say I didn't learn anything from it, infact I learned quite a bit. :P

I personally am very fond the Flute + Oboe sound mentioned by someone else as being a nono. While that definitely has some truth to it, and you should probably listen to that first before you listen to what I have to say about it, there is no wrong way to woodwind or music in general. After you have a hang of using the combos mentioned positively while avoiding the combos mentioned negatively, then remember that experimentation in music never hurt anyone... I think.

Another combo I like again has Flute + Oboe, but with the Oboe playing a low melody (low for an oboe atleast) with a flute playing the same melody one octave higher. I don't know how else to describe it other than it sounds nostalgic and kinda cheesy.

EDIT: This is why I DO NOT like Symphobia. Symphobia just has a woodwind patch that kinda has a sound you can't control. It sounds really good and cinematic if you just plug some chords into it, but if you want to have control over your sound, then good luck using it.
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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby Dr_Dissonance » 15 Aug 2012 17:41

Lavender_Harmony wrote:Very well put together little guide. There is one thing you should have mentioned though. You generally shouldn't double up things like flute/oboe, clarinet/bassoon. Tonally they clash, and will drift around one another, cancelling each other out if they play the same notes. Flute and Clarinet, Oboe and Bassoon are obvious choices. Some more detail on horn use would be nice, as well as a comparison between french horn and english horn, detailing their differences and why they're different, to prevent confusion :>


Horns are Brass (besides Cor Anglais) and I hear them being blasted most of the time. But detailing how Horns work through their range could be a good idea for a Brass guide!

First point is a good one though, I'll add it. With a minor modification: Basically double reeds sound great together. But I've seen Flute/Oboe combos a number of times, but for more 'out there' pieces. Just experiment I guess!

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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby MixolydianPony » 15 Aug 2012 20:18

This is very helpful. I'm going to read over it about 10 times so I remember it forever.

Any chance of guides for each part of the orchestra? I'd love to see one talking about percussion.

EDIT: Also, vaguely on topic, anyone know of some good woodwind VSTs? :P
Last edited by MixolydianPony on 15 Aug 2012 23:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby Kopachris » 15 Aug 2012 23:11

Lavender_Harmony wrote:Very well put together little guide. There is one thing you should have mentioned though. You generally shouldn't double up things like flute/oboe, clarinet/bassoon. Tonally they clash, and will drift around one another, cancelling each other out if they play the same notes. Flute and Clarinet, Oboe and Bassoon are obvious choices. Some more detail on horn use would be nice, as well as a comparison between french horn and english horn, detailing their differences and why they're different, to prevent confusion :>

To start off with, the English horn is a woodwind and the French horn is a brass instrument. Since the Dr. didn't really mention it beyond the name, the English horn (aka cor anglais) has about the same tone color as an oboe, but a little brighter. Kind of like a cross between oboe and clarinet. It has a lower range than the oboe as well, being generally considered the tenor of the reeds, while the oboe is considered the soprano.

A description of the French horn (aka simply "horn") will have to wait until a brass guide comes out. :3
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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby Rainbow_Rage » 15 Aug 2012 23:25

Kopachris wrote:
A description of the French horn (aka simply "horn") will have to wait until a brass guide comes out. :3


That's a dangerous way to shorten the name of it as "horn" also refers to trumpets, trombones and saxophones.
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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby Magnitude Zero » 16 Aug 2012 00:17

Rainbow_Rage wrote:
Kopachris wrote:
A description of the French horn (aka simply "horn") will have to wait until a brass guide comes out. :3


That's a dangerous way to shorten the name of it as "horn" also refers to trumpets, trombones and saxophones.

I dunno, when my band director says "horns" everyone just assumes (correctly) he means French horns. I'd imagine it's a common enough abbreviation to not cause a whole lot of confusion in context.

Good guide though! I always love that Derpy thing you got going on, keeps it entertaining as well as informative. I'ma have to start using more woodwinds!
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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby Dr_Dissonance » 16 Aug 2012 01:15

Rainbow_Rage wrote:
Kopachris wrote:
A description of the French horn (aka simply "horn") will have to wait until a brass guide comes out. :3


That's a dangerous way to shorten the name of it as "horn" also refers to trumpets, trombones and saxophones.


Not really, Horns are just Horns...Trumpets are Trumpets etc etc.

MixolydianPony wrote:Any chance of guides for each part of the orchestra? I'd love to see one talking about percussion.

EDIT: Also, vaguely on topic, anyone know of some good woodwind VSTs?


Perhaps, I am quite busy and thinking of lines for Derpy is tough work! :P

Good Woodwind vsts? Eeny Meeny Miny Moe
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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby Kopachris » 16 Aug 2012 01:52

Blind wrote:
Rainbow_Rage wrote:
Kopachris wrote:
A description of the French horn (aka simply "horn") will have to wait until a brass guide comes out. :3


That's a dangerous way to shorten the name of it as "horn" also refers to trumpets, trombones and saxophones.

I dunno, when my band director says "horns" everyone just assumes (correctly) he means French horns. I'd imagine it's a common enough abbreviation to not cause a whole lot of confusion in context.


At least, it used to be. Most classical scores simply refer to French horns as "Horns" or "Horns in F."
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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby Captain Ironhelm » 16 Aug 2012 02:09

Thanks, Dr. Dissonance!
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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby Rainbow_Rage » 16 Aug 2012 02:18

Dr_Dissonance wrote:
Rainbow_Rage wrote:
Kopachris wrote:
A description of the French horn (aka simply "horn") will have to wait until a brass guide comes out. :3


That's a dangerous way to shorten the name of it as "horn" also refers to trumpets, trombones and saxophones.


Not really, Horns are just Horns...Trumpets are Trumpets etc etc.




I think it's more a matter of context. Most of my experience is from big band and jazz ensemble where the saxophones, trombones and trumpets are collectively referred to as "horns".
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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby Fimbulin » 16 Aug 2012 02:43

Every time someone says "horn" I think of ram horns. Baa!
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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby Lopsided » 16 Aug 2012 04:17

I just learnt more from that guide about woodwinds than I have from pretty much everything else combined, a how to brass guide would be very appreciated!

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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby Kopachris » 16 Aug 2012 05:45

Rainbow_Rage wrote:
Dr_Dissonance wrote:
Rainbow_Rage wrote:
That's a dangerous way to shorten the name of it as "horn" also refers to trumpets, trombones and saxophones.


Not really, Horns are just Horns...Trumpets are Trumpets etc etc.




I think it's more a matter of context. Most of my experience is from big band and jazz ensemble where the saxophones, trombones and trumpets are collectively referred to as "horns".

Saxophones aren't even brass--they're woodwinds. How do they fit in the same category as horns, trombones, and trumpets?
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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby Lavender_Harmony » 16 Aug 2012 10:12

Ah yes, Cor Anglais, the term I never use... xD

Also I always get the sax and french horn confused as to which is in brass and which is in woodwind, since the french horn sits so damn nicely amongst the woods, and the sax compliments brass really well >_<
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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby Rainbow_Rage » 16 Aug 2012 13:22

Kopachris wrote:
Saxophones aren't even brass--they're woodwinds. How do they fit in the same category as horns, trombones, and trumpets?


Well, in a big band, you have your Drums, Guitar, Bass, and Piano (the Rhythm section). Then you have your Sax, Trombone and Trumpet (The Horn Section). The same applies to a jazz ensemble except you have less. They are all grouped together as being wind instruments and they are collectively in charge of the melodies and harmonies.

Saxophone also behaves more like a brass instrument despite being a woodwind so they are commonly grouped in with brass.
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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby Kopachris » 16 Aug 2012 14:54

Rainbow_Rage wrote:
Kopachris wrote:
Saxophones aren't even brass--they're woodwinds. How do they fit in the same category as horns, trombones, and trumpets?


Well, in a big band, you have your Drums, Guitar, Bass, and Piano (the Rhythm section). Then you have your Sax, Trombone and Trumpet (The Horn Section). The same applies to a jazz ensemble except you have less. They are all grouped together as being wind instruments and they are collectively in charge of the melodies and harmonies.

Saxophone also behaves more like a brass instrument despite being a woodwind so they are commonly grouped in with brass.

That's weird. And no, the saxophone behaves exactly like the woodwind that it is (I suppose that's a matter of opinion, though). Brass instruments are full of metallic-sounding overtones. A saxophone is more... liquid-sounding. Listen to some Kenny G--it sounds like a combination between clarinet and oboe, like an English horn, but leaning more towards clarinet than oboe.
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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby Dr_Dissonance » 16 Aug 2012 18:18

Lavender_Harmony wrote:Ah yes, Cor Anglais, the term I never use... xD

Also I always get the sax and french horn confused as to which is in brass and which is in woodwind, since the french horn sits so damn nicely amongst the woods, and the sax compliments brass really well >_<


Ha ha, I spent years in high school thinking the Saxophone was a Brass instrument. Took a while for me to change that in my head!

Rainbow_Rage wrote:Well, in a big band, you have your Drums, Guitar, Bass, and Piano (the Rhythm section). Then you have your Sax, Trombone and Trumpet (The Horn Section). The same applies to a jazz ensemble except you have less. They are all grouped together as being wind instruments and they are collectively in charge of the melodies and harmonies.

Saxophone also behaves more like a brass instrument despite being a woodwind so they are commonly grouped in with brass.


I guess that works for simplicities sake!

But the Saxophone behaves nothing like a Brass instrument sorry. Saxophones produce sound through a reed, change pitch via keys and (as Koopachris said) the overtones are different. Huge differences!
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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby Rainbow_Rage » 16 Aug 2012 19:02

Dr_Dissonance wrote:
Lavender_Harmony wrote:Ah yes, Cor Anglais, the term I never use... xD

Also I always get the sax and french horn confused as to which is in brass and which is in woodwind, since the french horn sits so damn nicely amongst the woods, and the sax compliments brass really well >_<


Ha ha, I spent years in high school thinking the Saxophone was a Brass instrument. Took a while for me to change that in my head!

Rainbow_Rage wrote:Well, in a big band, you have your Drums, Guitar, Bass, and Piano (the Rhythm section). Then you have your Sax, Trombone and Trumpet (The Horn Section). The same applies to a jazz ensemble except you have less. They are all grouped together as being wind instruments and they are collectively in charge of the melodies and harmonies.

Saxophone also behaves more like a brass instrument despite being a woodwind so they are commonly grouped in with brass.


I guess that works for simplicities sake!

But the Saxophone behaves nothing like a Brass instrument sorry. Saxophones produce sound through a reed, change pitch via keys and (as Koopachris said) the overtones are different. Huge differences!


Perhaps behave was the wrong word, but that's irrelevant to what I'm trying to say and beyond my scope of knowledge and mastery of the English language.

I apologize for going on this sort of off-topic tangent, but the point is that when someone mentions the horns, horn section or a horn. They may not be referring to the French Horn specifically (this really tripped me up when I first encountered it).
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Re: How to Woodwind

Postby EnnervateIndustries » 18 Aug 2012 13:37

Another tip for people who want to write for woodwinds: Don't just write off clarinet in lieu of flute or oboe! I've played many pieces by many composers who give nothing but harmony and boring stuff to clarinets, and it gets really dull. Clarinets can add a really cool sound to a piece if you use them right.


As a clarinetist, I'm fairly sure this is biased...
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