Orchestral subgenres

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Orchestral subgenres

Postby CitricAcid » 26 Dec 2013 13:18

Does anyone else find it strange that orchestral music isn't broken out into as many subgenres as other types of music? I guess it itself could technically be considered a subgenre of "instrumental," but if "electronic" music can be broken into the bajillions of genres that it has, surely there must be a way to do the same to orchestral.

Personally I've always considered "Epic/Trailer" to be a subgenre of orchestral. Anyone know of any others?
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Re: Orchestral subgenres

Postby Freewave » 26 Dec 2013 13:40

Well in the past classical was broken down into styles based most often a period of time when it was made, such as Romantic or Baroque.

Modern Classical seems to be a lot more "experimental / avante-garde" or at least Atonal and Indeterminacy is compared to what came before it. You also have stuff that's very specific in how its made, like Minimalism, Post-Minimalism, Serialism, and New Age which fit under modern divisions.

Most of that is stuff you likely wouldn't come to mind when thinking of Orchestral which I think of as essentially classical music mimicking the orchestra (ie via Kontakt and a DAW). So stuff like Makkon or Carbon Maestro and music used for soundtrack work is what i would normally think of. To me there's a lot less clear divisions in style although from Epic to Subtle / Minimal can be a key difference in approach.

AMG defines "Orchestral" outside of computer made as
"Orchestral music originated in the late 16th century stage spectacles and 17th century opera orchestras. The word "orchestra" came into common use in the 18th century, when music of the Baroque and Classical eras often was composed for specific occasions. Incidental music to accompany plays was also important in the Classical and early Romantic eras. The Romantics threw off the constraints of pre-established forms and luxuriated in the possibilities offered by the expansion of instruments available. Liszt pioneered the tone poem or symphonic poem. Orchestral dances like "On the Beautiful Blue Danube" have lost none of their popularity. For much of the 20th century, the orchestra stood at the center of community life in classical music, and new works appeared accordingly. The success of pieces like John Adams' "A Short Ride in a Fast Machine," shows that the orchestra remains a vital medium, even in an age of high technology. "

Incidentally, AMG has classical broken down into these which are a bit more straight forward but useful.

Avant-Garde Music
Ballet
Band Music
Chamber Music
Choral
Classical Crossover
Concerto
Electronic/Computer Music
Film Score
Keyboard
Marches
Miscellaneous (Classical)
Opera
Orchestral
Show/Musical
Symphony
Vocal Music
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Re: Orchestral subgenres

Postby CitricAcid » 26 Dec 2013 14:03

I guess this is a genre where you start to see a lot of distinction from producing music (i.e. in a DAW) and composing it (i.e. for actual musicians). I might compose something for band, chamber ensemble, ballet, etc. but I wouldn't produce it. On the other hand, pretty much anything I might produce I would also be willing to compose as well.

Are there any modern additions to the orchestral subgenre list? Most of those in the list are at least 100 years old. I'm curious what the orchestral producers out there today are referring to their work as.
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Re: Orchestral subgenres

Postby Freewave » 26 Dec 2013 14:21

Again that's why I pointed out the Modern Classical as that's all 50 years old or less tops. Minimalism took off in the 60's /70's, Post-Minimalism after that (90's). New Age is some of the first mix of Classical with Progressive Electronic from the 70's.

Here's what you specifically have outlined from this century:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_classical
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Re: Orchestral subgenres

Postby CitricAcid » 26 Dec 2013 15:38

Alright, I think I'm gradually honing in on the question I'm trying to ask. For the record, I'm perfectly aware of the various musical movements of the 20th century. I guess what I'm interested in is subgenres of orchestral as it itself exists as a subgenre of electronic. Something that someone who calls himself a producer would produce.

My reason for asking is that various electronic genres have spawned smaller more specific subgenres of themselves while the orchestral genre is stuck with its own broad name. Similar to how there are very few named subgenres of Country but still different styles of it. You have to admit that if someone tells you they produce "orchestral" music, you really can't get a good idea of what their music will sound like beyond the instrumentation.
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Re: Orchestral subgenres

Postby Freewave » 26 Dec 2013 16:15

I absolutely agree with that. To me Orchestral seems really tight knit on what you would expect as an electronic medium. I wouldn't be able to describe it much more then a general style epic/ grandiose to subtle /minimal. I would think there doesn't really exit much of a division unless you are specifying a waltz, march, or choral in usage or instrumentation.
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Re: Orchestral subgenres

Postby Callenby » 26 Dec 2013 16:36

I've noticed a difference between when I write music for performers and when I write music I'll produce in Cubase. For the former, it's very much in line with some style or era that I particularly like. I might be writing a Chopin-esque nocturne, or a chamber piece a la Schubert (not that these pieces would end up being particularly good, but that's my thought process). I'm still trying to find my own voice, but I like Romanticism and minimalism so I emulate those styles.

When producing, it's much more fluid. You're granted much more freedom and variability when using a DAW to create unique sounds, something which is hard to resist. I mean, why not put in some kind of contemporary spin on an otherwise traditional piece? As a result, I have trouble pinpointing an exact genre and typically do not explicitly emulate one composer, tradition, or style. What category does Restored fall under? I don't know, but "orchestral" is a convenient placeholder. This is where I like to experiment and frankly I'm not that concerned with what label I will ultimately affix to it. I'm just trying to make compelling and emotional music that is, granted, still within the confines of orchestral.
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Re: Orchestral subgenres

Postby ganondox » 02 Jan 2014 02:07

I think one thing to note is that I think a lot of Orchestral has more in common with Pop than with Classical, well, at least modern pop elements than traditional classical had. I don't think it can really be lumped with classical, though in all actuallity I don't really know what I'm talking about.
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Re: Orchestral subgenres

Postby Callenby » 02 Jan 2014 17:17

ganondox wrote:I think one thing to note is that I think a lot of Orchestral has more in common with Pop than with Classical, well, at least modern pop elements than traditional classical had. I don't think it can really be lumped with classical, though in all actuallity I don't really know what I'm talking about.

Could you elaborate? Because that doesn't really make sense to me.
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Re: Orchestral subgenres

Postby ganondox » 03 Jan 2014 02:18

Callenby wrote:
ganondox wrote:I think one thing to note is that I think a lot of Orchestral has more in common with Pop than with Classical, well, at least modern pop elements than traditional classical had. I don't think it can really be lumped with classical, though in all actuallity I don't really know what I'm talking about.

Could you elaborate? Because that doesn't really make sense to me.


It has to do with the way the songs are structured. Classical music isn't defined by the instruments that play it, there are also composing patterns in it. You can group different genres of classical music that way, by understanding how it was composed you can figure out what era it was from or was immitating. By being pop like I mean it uses Classical-esqu instrumentation, but it isn't really classical music, it has a simpler composistion and stuff. Like, take contemporary showtunes like Wicked or Les Mis. It uses a lot of classical instrumentation, but musicaly it's pop, not classical. I think the orchestral composers in the fandom tend to have more of a classical influence than showtunes does, but I'm not sure if it's really classical either.
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Re: Orchestral subgenres

Postby Conduit » 03 Jan 2014 17:11

ganondox wrote:It has to do with the way the songs are structured. Classical music isn't defined by the instruments that play it, there are also composing patterns in it. You can group different genres of classical music that way, by understanding how it was composed you can figure out what era it was from or was immitating. By being pop like I mean it uses Classical-esqu instrumentation, but it isn't really classical music, it has a simpler composistion and stuff. Like, take contemporary showtunes like Wicked or Les Mis. It uses a lot of classical instrumentation, but musicaly it's pop, not classical. I think the orchestral composers in the fandom tend to have more of a classical influence than showtunes does, but I'm not sure if it's really classical either.


I'm not quite sure I understand what your saying here. I agree that modern orchestral isn't classical, but saying that its simpler is a huge generalization, and one I don't think is actually true. Take a listen to some TSFH stuff, such as this. I would say composition wise its just as complicated as much of the classical I've heard.

As for the original question, I have a few different things that I sub-divide orchestral into while producing. Note that other then piano pieces, I've never had any of my work performed, and I write everything with the help of Kontakt libraries.

Spoiler Sub-Genres:
-"True" Orchestral (Stuff that really could be played by an orchestra. While writing I take into consideration the sizes of each section, and things such as people needing to breath and whatnot.)

-"Modern" Orchestral (Doesn't matter if its realistic as long as it sounds good. Want 1000 string players? Go ahead!)

-Hybrid scores (Mixing in electronic music with orchestral. Can go from a few mega-horn to a full dubstep drop. A lot of Hans Zimmers scores fit in here.)

-Piano/Strings (A lot of what people are calling orchestral now has nothing other then these two sections, so I kinda group those on their own.)


I think that's about all for how I divide the genre. I'm not a huge fan of genre's in the first place, so most of my definitions are fairly lenient. One of the channels I listen to quite often describes the songs in brackets, but they're far to constricting to be genres. Here's a link to that.
https://soundcloud.com/flatflish/a-warm-past

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Re: Orchestral subgenres

Postby Callenby » 03 Jan 2014 17:45

ganondox wrote:It has to do with the way the songs are structured. Classical music isn't defined by the instruments that play it, there are also composing patterns in it. You can group different genres of classical music that way, by understanding how it was composed you can figure out what era it was from or was immitating. By being pop like I mean it uses Classical-esqu instrumentation, but it isn't really classical music, it has a simpler composistion and stuff. Like, take contemporary showtunes like Wicked or Les Mis. It uses a lot of classical instrumentation, but musicaly it's pop, not classical. I think the orchestral composers in the fandom tend to have more of a classical influence than showtunes does, but I'm not sure if it's really classical either.

I know what classical music is and what it isn't. That wasn't my question. I was wondering about the way you were specifically using the terms "classical" and "pop", particularly in regards to musicians in this fandom, because they're extremely broad generalizations. Musicals like Wicked are not even trying to be the same thing as contemporary orchestral music so I think it's pointless to try and compare them. Besides, even if fandom composers aren't "really classical", that doesn't automatically throw them into the realm of "pop" (whatever that even means in this case). The "classical-pop" dichotomy is incredibly limiting and all the more so when you don't sufficiently define either term.

Your statements are confusing because above you say "I think the orchestral composers in the fandom tend to have more of a classical influence than showtunes does" but then earlier you said "I think one thing to note is that I think a lot of Orchestral has more in common with Pop than with Classical, well, at least modern pop elements than traditional classical had." Sorry mate, but you're not being very clear.
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Re: Orchestral subgenres

Postby CitricAcid » 03 Jan 2014 18:08

I think I can see what ganondox is saying. "Pop" isn't really a genre designator but a description of how accessible the music is to the general public's ear. For instance, a common cliche in pop music that draws listeners' attention is the "4 chords" song. Well in *pop*ular orchestral music, you'll find just as much usage of the "4 chords" as well as the cliche's various cousins. True "classical" (or Baroque, or Romantic, or whatever) music is much more harmonically diverse, but it has a very "old" sound to it that makes it less accessible to the modern listener.

I'm not sure about the whole "composers in the fandom tend to have more of a classical influence" thing, though. I have yet to hear an orchestral piece come out of the fandom that falls outside the realm of popular orchestral, though I myself don't do a whole lot of casual music listening. Can you cite an example perhaps?
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Re: Orchestral subgenres

Postby ganondox » 05 Jan 2014 10:53

CitricAcid wrote:I think I can see what ganondox is saying. "Pop" isn't really a genre designator but a description of how accessible the music is to the general public's ear. For instance, a common cliche in pop music that draws listeners' attention is the "4 chords" song. Well in *pop*ular orchestral music, you'll find just as much usage of the "4 chords" as well as the cliche's various cousins. True "classical" (or Baroque, or Romantic, or whatever) music is much more harmonically diverse, but it has a very "old" sound to it that makes it less accessible to the modern listener.

I'm not sure about the whole "composers in the fandom tend to have more of a classical influence" thing, though. I have yet to hear an orchestral piece come out of the fandom that falls outside the realm of popular orchestral, though I myself don't do a whole lot of casual music listening. Can you cite an example perhaps?


Yeah, more or less this. Again, I said I didn't really know what I was talking about, just that I meant that modern orchestral isn't really classical. Oh, I meant to say "I think one thing to note is that I think a lot of Orchestral has more in common with Pop than with Classical, well, at least more modern pop elements than traditional classical had." but I forgot the more. Anyway, I wasn't saying fan compositions fall out side the range of modern popular orchestral, just that they are more classical inspired than modern showtunes as far as I can tell, like Les Mis's music isn't that complex, it's like rock riffs played on strings. Now, to answer your question, this isn't an orchestral piece, just an piano one, but it has more of a classical sound to it.



Anyway, I think the reason that modern popular orchestral isn't divided into subgenres is because most of it is either a. sound track music, which is it's own weird genre that mixes styles and doesn't follow normal subgenres or b. just orchestral pop which get's thrown under pop or another less descriptive genre, and the fandom is a slight anomaly with it's level of orchestral instrumental music not being used as soundtracks. Even stuff like Audiomachine and Two Steps from Hell which release music are still soundtrack oriented.
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Re: Orchestral subgenres

Postby Mijka » 15 Jan 2014 03:18

Orchestral / classical are certainly a wide and interesting genre, and personally i need to learn a lot about the sub-genres to refine my own classification list...

Nowadays i ended using "theme-oriented" differences to classify my own collection (but if we only speak about brony music, the fact that these productions are very recent would put them all in a "Modern" subgenre, some of them having an "older" sub-genre tone, i guess)...

So, in my list i have different orchestral themes (electro-, ambiant-, "epic"-, rock-...).
In parallel of "theme-oriented" classification for recent "classical-like" releases, it is possible IMHO to classify them by the number of instruments used, from very limited ones (in term of numbers, not quality) with "instrumental" (with one main instrument, like piano or cello...) or even little "chamber orchestras" to the widest "symphony/ philharmonic orchestras".
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