A Public Service Announcement

[Senator Myth]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FFV ... t?hl=en_US

This is painful and it hurts me to read this. But I want to share it with you all to make a point: this is not healthy communication.

We cannot keep having people feel the need to keep their feelings bottled up until the moment they leave the community. First NotACleverPony, now Artemus. Both made an extensive deal of expressing their feelings with a formal goodbye.

Both addressed issues and concerns that they had never brought up before, and only immediately before pledging to quit the community forever.

Here's my proposal: if you're having an issue with someone in this community, or the community as a whole, speak up. Say something about it.

Perhaps more importantly, if someone approaches you with a problem, don't just blow it off. Listen and work it out with them. What's nothing to you might be a big deal to them.

If Artemus's words were meant to make me feel awful (and I honestly can't think of any other reasons that he would share these with me and only me, if he wasn't trying to prove a point), then they succeeded. I really, really wished that he had approached me about this beforehand. I had no idea that my actions were hurting him in any way.

I honestly only wish that I had had the chance to try to work this out with him before he left. It's such a simple thing. That's why I'm making this post: I'm trying to offer YOU the chance that I didn't get. I don't want to see a long string of MLR resignation letters; I'd rather see people approaching one another openly and honestly, and working out their issues.

Because honestly? If I wasn't writing this post, it's possible that I would be writing my own resignation letter.

I know some of you are thinking "OMG more MLR drama lol /ignore", and I know what you mean. But this doesn't have to be so dramatic. We don't need to have so much infighting and internal conflict. Pretending it isn't there isn't going to help anything, though.

Let's all do our part to treat one another's emotions with respect, enough respect that they don't feel forced to keep their emotions bottled up. It's such a simple thing. It doesn't mean that we need to be superserious and straight-laced all the damn time. It just means exactly what it means: that we have to treat one another with respect.

And just as importantly, we have to let other people know when we're not feeling respected.

I'm sorry if this post seems ridiculous or unwanted or overly dramatic or whatever. I just need to get this out, and I hope that it helps prevent more hurt feelings, infighting, and departures.

I... might be taking a break from this community for a little while. I simply cannot stand the idea that I'm causing any kind of strife whatsoever to my fellow bronies... hell, my fellow human beings. I love you all, regardless of your enthusiasm for the show, your musical talent, your whatever. You're human beings, and all of you deserve nothing less than as much love and respect as I can possibly give you, hard though it is sometimes to put that into practice.

Best of luck,
Myth

[X-Trav]

If I wasn't writing this post, it's possible that I would be writing my own resignation letter.

God no.

if you're having an issue with someone in this community, or the community as a whole, speak up. Say something about it.

Perhaps more importantly, if someone approaches you with a problem, don't just blow it off. Listen and work it out with them. What's nothing to you might be a big deal to them.

This is what we DO need. If the community itself is causing problems, then we all need to work together to fix it.

It's really upsetting to see some of you people go. You're all wonderful and talented. One thing I notice is that this community is nice enough that people actually write letters before leaving instead of just cutting us all off. That's a good sign. (Though the outcome is bad.) We're close, and we need to address these issues together.

[Rainbowdutch]

First of all I am very glad that you made this post.

Second of all I want Ipie to read this post very carefully. I have no problem with anything that you do, infact despite my trolling I quite like you. However you do have a certain personality that is really easy to hate. The possibility of you throwing this post away as mlr drama is pretty big and I want you to pay attention if there are people that have something against you.

Also I can troll a lot sometimes so if I go too far please tell me. I can imagion that people can get annoyed by me.
Especially keeponrockin and bronyjake please tell me when it is enough.

P.s. if there are some really wierd words in this post that is because I types this on phone

[Versilaryan]

If we want to get rid of that elitist clique feeling that Artemus and NACP complained about, we all need to pitch in to make this more of a community centered around these forums. Click that "View Unanswered Posts" link at the upper-left. Now respond to them. Then, go to the remixes board, or the discographies board, and give some posts love there, too. None (well, almost none) of these songs are ridiculously long, and it'll take you five to ten minutes to listen and comment, and it'll do the songwriter all sorts of good.

C'mon, guys, let's make this forum a little more active. =D

[PinkieGuy]

I may be wrong, but I think that NotACleverPony and Artemus leaving arise from quite different issues.

In NACP's case it was about both the cliquey nature of the site, and the lack of functionality of the forums. Whilst it's impossible to determine if we've de-cliqued I think our recent reformation threads and "don't die community" threads indicate that people are taking this site seriously at the moment. We're valuing it.

As far as I know with Artemis however, it appears to be much more personal issues that made him leave. Reading his farewell message, he mentioned his difficuries growing as a musician here as well as a feeling of victimization from individuals. What he sentto you in some part clears the vagueness there.

So, how do we fix those issues?

I agree with the above sentiment of being open with issues instead of internalizing them. I also agree with efforts to afford mutual respect.

That being said, I find some of what Artemus said frustrating and without attacking the man as an individual, I would like to address a few mindset issues.

Firstly, he mentioned that as a Freeform improvisational pianist, he could neither learn from the electronic artists nor the classicals. I find this incredibly close minded. As a musician, if one is any way serious about it, our goal should be a continuing growth in knowledge about music as a whole. Just because you play a very particular way (mongolian throat warbling) does not mean that you should not take in knowledge about other genres or recording styles. Because one day, you might not be a warbler anymore. You might be (another) dubstep artist and all that past information is wasted. Beyond that, to scorn others information or suggestions because it doesn't fit your musical process is bigotted and assumes that your own method is superior.

The lesson for MLR? To effective generate a community of growing artists, it's not about how others improve or like your music, but how you help others improve their music, and what you learn that has never before been a part of your music.

Another thing to note from Artemus's musing is the degree to which he felt stereotyped. He indicated that Myth's jocular hassling had developed a mindset in people that he was an "opinionated asshole" (his words, not mine). Personally, I didn't have any mindset about Art one way or another, my only interaction with him being the thread where he threatened to quit music altogether because other people were better than him. Whilst that thread annoyed me (for similar reasons to the above), I had no issues with him and I would wager that the vast majority of the MLR community didn't have an overly opinionated issue with him either.

The reason I mention this? If we are going to employ some grievence procedure in the future so that people have the capacity to voice their issues with one another instead of leaving MLR altogether, we need to avoid martyrisation and/or counter criticism.

If someone is feeling that the community is precluding them and causing them issues, you bring this up to that person, and if that doesn't work, to the community as a whole. We try and work through this problem, and settle the rift together. What you can't do is say "Well, i might be an opinionated asshole, but I don't introduce myself that way" because that is essentially saying "I have a right to be an opinionated asshole, but you don't have the right to be a comedic asshole".

Without fully understanding art's concerns (and again not as a critique against him), we need to make sure that this doesn't turn MLR into a cesspit of open bitching, flamewarish confrontations and ultimately, self-righteous aggrandizement. If you're going to raise a concern about how you've been treated, be prepared for others to analyse your part in that as well.

/RANT.









I only seem to be writing long posts lately. MLR, why you make me so opinionated?

[Dr_Dissonance]

Okay a few things:

1) Artemus clearly can't take a joke...or he can, but the moment the joke is aimed at him, its different...

2) He chose now, once he left, to tell you that? I'm pretty sure it's more to hurt you then to actually tell you...if it was to sort it out, he would have possibly done something about it before just walking out...I mean, I wasn't expecting his departure at all!

3) I can handle Artemus leaving, but if you leave, I will travel the approx. 4000 km to you and drag you back!!!!

As Pinkieguy said, my opinion of Artemus on MLR was indifferent...he was a guy on MLR to me...
After the resignation, my respect for him went up slightly, even with the questionable wording of his letter...
But after this? My respect went waaayyy down...

I don't think it's fair at all for Art to just up and leave and THEN tell you that you're part of the reason...in fact, I think that's more a "I want attention, so I'm going to make you feel bad for me"

Which is both childish and like an "opinionated asshole" (Artemus 2011: 1)

That being said, I suppose if we want to develop as a community, little kinks in the chain of friendship do need to be ironed out...

So in conclusion: Leave and I'll hunt you down...

[bartekko]

So in conclusion: Leave and I'll hunt you down...

and then tie him down to the chair next to his PC, so the only thing he can do is music and mlr?

[Senator Myth]

So in conclusion: Leave and I'll hunt you down...

and then tie him down to the chair next to his PC, so the only thing he can do is music and mlr?

Bartekko, stay the fuck out of my threads if you don't have anything constructive or topical to say, okay?


To everyone else, I'm still planning on taking that break, but I just want to make it clear that this thread isn't a "get pissed off at Artemus" thread, it's a "let's use this as an example of how NOT to deal with one another as community members".

If you haven't posted in this thread yet, I would really like you to express your thoughts on this matter. As long as it's topical and not an attempt at a funny joke, because I feel that this is a very important discussion for us to have as a community.

[X-Trav]

To everyone else, I'm still planning on taking that break, but I just want to make it clear that this thread isn't a "get pissed off at Artemus" thread, it's a "let's use this as an example of how NOT to deal with one another as community members".

Artemus said it himself, "I have no desire to use the programs many of you use; listening, much less collaborating, becomes an extremely difficult task." He didn't want to be here, you didn't cause any of this. And personally, I think taking a break over this matter is ludicrous.

Artemus only threw one instance of "disdain" at you in that chat, and even then it's not a personal attack against the guy. There was no slander, no vulgarity, it was just a caps lock post that he interpreted to be a personal attack. I know you think you hurt the guy, but i'm telling you from experience:

If such a minor comment can lead someone to perform something that drastic, there is something much bigger going on in their lives.

Through my emotional roller-coaster we call a life, that's something I've learned, and I feel it holds true here. Had you really been a major cause for his grief he would've been able to throw a lot more things at you. When something is very upsetting, throwing the blame on someone else is just about the easiest thing to do. It confirms to oneself that you are okay, and that ____ is the one who's in the wrong. Maybe Artemus had a bad day and when you comment was posted, he kept it. I don't know you in real life Senator Myth, but I sure as hell know you speak without malice.

And honestly? If someone is that unstable to let a simple post in an active chatroom cause them to leave everything with a histrionic letter of resignation. There are some things they need to sort out in their life before they let other people in it.

You can take your break Senator, I'm desensitized to personal attacks like this now so I don't know what you really feel. But if you do feel you're a major contributor to this: feel better soon, we'll miss you.

Oh, and don't get to comfortable without us.

[Circuitfry]

So in conclusion: Leave and I'll hunt you down...

and then tie him down to the chair next to his PC, so the only thing he can do is music and mlr?

Bartekko, stay the fuck out of my threads if you don't have anything constructive or topical to say, okay?

I sense a misunderstanding incoming... I wouldn't be surprised if his intentions behind that joke were far different (i.e. more light-hearted and spiritual to the community) than from what you gathered. :c (Bartekko, I think Myth thinks you're being sarcastic and contemptuous [now *I* might get that wrong. If so, sorry Myth hahaha]).

BUT ANYWAY, gosh, I thought Artemus and I were buds and stuff. I don't see how you can improve improv unless you do it all the time, and there's a valuable experience to gain from it. I remember in the toastbeards that he would do these 30-second renderings of a soundfont and a lot of spammed notes (probably improv) that would sound pretty. That's fine and all but they all sounded the same and he made the least progress and improvement amongst us. He wasn't good at listening to advice. Maybe he's afraid of trying something new and the joking might have exacerbated it.

It's not like this community is expected to be tremendously savvy and read minds.

[PinkieGuy]

It's not like this community is expected to be tremendously savvy and read minds.

This times a million.

[zorg]

i want to reply to this without writing an essay because
1. no one will read it
2. more drama, which i do not want to fuel nor create
so, in short sentences:

- i am stupid in the way that i don't really know when i get really irritating; if i do, feel free to tell me as harshly as you want to stop, but at least tell me the reason to since i won't really get it; i'm slow. (and yes, i troll sometimes too, but i try not to go overboard)

- whatever may i seem to radiate outwards, i do respect every one of you; i think this one should be taken for granted; it's my true personality, deep below layers of apathy i built up over several years, but still, i am nice. (and i hope no one views me as not that nice)

-

In NACP's case it was about both the cliquey nature of the site, and the lack of functionality of the forums.

i think i read that he was kinda more upset with us not using all the functionality he so sweat-droppingly tried to implement for us... though i may have read that wrong. In any case, i already voiced my opinion on the forum's structure in another thread; won't do it here.

-

You can take your break Senator, I'm desensitized to personal attacks like this now so I don't know what you really feel. But if you do feel you're a major contributor to this: feel better soon, we'll miss you.

this, but lemme edit it a bit: you should take a break. and when you feel better, come back.

[Interrobang Pie]

However you do have a certain personality that is really easy to hate.

Oh yes, I'm fully aware of that. I'm actually really selfish too.

I want you to pay attention if there are people that have something against you.

People have things against me, yes. I'm ever so slightly proud of that achievement. But, I can't do anything about it once they leave. If I'm insulting, then approach me and tell me before you decide to piss off!

Oh wait, people have said I'm unapproachable in the past. Is it because you think I'm completely unserious at every waking moment? Is it because you think that I hate any member of MLR? That is a heaping pile of bullshit.

Obviously first impressions are important, but you can't judge a book by it's cover.

[Lethaargic]

Having just recently had to break off a long time irl friendship, I can honestly say that I know now that whats best isn't always what you want. Be the friend you want your friends to be, that's all anyone can do.

Several great musicians all together on one site. I noticed it the first time I got on mlr, of course it's going to be intimidating and feel cliquey. But we are all of us a community, if anyone feels like they can't approach me or anyone here with an issue/question because they wont be taken seriously, or they think that person is to snobbish to care, there dead wrong (or they should be)

If you haven't read the Twilight Sparkle does epic meal time comic, go read it now

"friendship is not indestructible" "that's probably what makes it such a beautiful thing"

[Calamus_Dash]

Having just recently had to break off a long time irl friendship, I can honestly say that I know now that whats best isn't always what you want. Be the friend you want your friends to be, that's all anyone can do.

Several great musicians all together on one site. I noticed it the first time I got on mlr, of course it's going to be intimidating and feel cliquey. But we are all of us a community, if anyone feels like they can't approach me or anyone here with an issue/question because they wont be taken seriously, or they think that person is to snobbish to care, there dead wrong (or they should be)

If you haven't read the Twilight Sparkle does epic meal time comic, go read it now

"friendship is not indestructible" "that's probably what makes it such a beautiful thing"

agreed completely. It might look a bit too "cliquey" from outside, but the second you make a post in the introduction thread you'll feel right at home
That might sound corny but I'm serious, not only is this fandom the most welcoming in the world (although to be honest I haven't been in any other fandoms), MLR is the best part of it. I've been posting here for a few weeks and I haven't had so much as a single argument with anyone else here, which is more than I can say for most sites.
Also that comic sums it up pretty well.

[Artemus]

-everything-

-everything-

Well it's true, I'm a complete asshole. I suppose it should be put somewhere in my resume, or something.

I almost didn't want to make a post. Because really, who wants to hear from the guy who posted BS like I did? I sure wouldn't.

I agree with the original post however. This is the opposite of good communication and a situation poorly dealt with on my end.

Allow me, if you will, to explain.



At the time, and still somewhat currently, a great number of things completely unrelated to MLR have happened upon me. I'd call it 'life', but then I'd sound like a spoiled child (moreso than I currently do). I had truly felt that my place in musicianship wasn't here, and I wanted to make sure that my message was perfectly clear when I said I held no ill will against anyone here.

Furthermore, it was my intention to leave anyways, fueled only by the idea that I had other things to worry about. Not to say that my agenda is so important that I cannot spare the time for the rest of you, but simply a shift in priorities that happened at a rather untimely moment.

Of course, none of that actually matters, because it's really no excuse to act as I had. What really matters is:

Why did I say such things to Myth in the first place?!

I have no excuse. He, as well as Doctor Dissonance, are completely right about what they have said. It's true, I find it immediately more difficult to find humor in something directed at me based on previous experiences. I could have piped up and said something, but I was quite done with dealing in such talk, especially coming from the Professional Chat. It wasn't the first time someone had said things like that to me, and I was determined it would be the last.

However in doing so, I had vented frustration to someone who did not deserve to hear anything of it. I should have kept quiet, I should have found a way to laugh at it. Something. I remained silent on the issue being hurtful because I just didn't think it was so important to make a scene about it. But it appears I did anyway. It's like doing right things isn't in my to-do list.

I really don't want to post, at all right now. I'm so....I have no word for it. Just. Sorry, Myth. It wasn't meant to antagonize you, or make you feel bad. I tried my best to make it sound just informative.

I really, truly, honestly apologize. To not just Myth, but everyone. It hadn't even dawned on me the effect of what I said. To be honest, I'm not sure what bothers me more: The ignorance of knowing those words, or not thinking twice about them after they were said. I wish I could just not talk, sometimes.

So there. Here's a post made sheerly because I wanted to apologize. If I was ever going to look back at MLR, this was the deciding time of not doing so, because I clearly do more damage than needed here.

[PinkieGuy]

Lots of stuff

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick here mate. Take it as an indicia of how much the MLR community appreciates you (and for that matter, everyone here) that we've gotten this involved on trying to work out what was wrong and find ways to stop other people from getting shut out in the community.

The fact that you're here to shore up miscommunication shows that THERE WAS MISCOMMUNICATION. This is something we need to work individually and as a whole, so that when we preach Love, Tolerance and Glitter, people are actually getting what they subscribed for.

[Interrobang Pie]

the Professional Chat

This reminds me of another issue of miscommunication, or rather, the lack of any communication whatsoever.

From my perspective, there's a gaping hole in the community full of people that I almost never seen have a conversation with me and/or the rest of us in Skype (I shan't point any fingers, but obviously I mean people other than those that have left us or without Skype).

I'm probably going to sound like an idiot for asking this, and I probably know the answer, but why?


I also know of more than one case where certain people just won't show up when another certain person is online. Why?!?!?!?!

[Circuitfry]

I-Pie's questions are too vague and generalized for me to give a real proper answer. My first instinct is to say that the new members might be shy and their instinct is to lay low and observe the elusive clique before joining in. Some members are admirable for breaking past that social wall and reaching out to the community members. More new members should follow that example.

But maybe I'm getting off track, here. What Pinkie Guy says makes a lot of sense to me. Artemus, thank you for coming back and apologizing to Myth, I can totally understand how tough and awkward a position that can be, like ripping off a band-aid BUT VITAL FOR THE GREATER GOOD OF UNDERSTANDINGS RRGGHH it shows that you aren't closed-minded and have compassion to recognize your faults and mistakes, even in the face of blame. To sum up the courage to apologize to Myth like that is inspiring because it's treating him like a human being, and that's what he is (unless he's a pony, but same difference). We can take a page from you in what it means to be a good friend after making a mistake. Dear Princess Celestia-- kidding.

If you must leave our community and find your niche elsewhere and try to hone your passions and talents elsewhere, I will respect that just as everyone else should, but if I may add, you should take Pinkie Guy's words into serious consideration. There are plenty of talented musicians in this community, and who knows who will walk through the door next? It could be a fantastic improv pianist, one that you could attach yourself to, or there could be an aspiring improv pianist looking for someone with experience. I cannot fairly compare our community to others, but staying here will foster growth and guarantee a vital component of improvement in the arts; a constructive audience (of friends, to boot!)

What you have here is an opportunity, Artemus. Life priorities are, of course, another story, and that is perfectly understood, as well, but if there's ever a chance that you may come back to kick it with me or my brony friends, the couch is always open.

[d.notive]

the Professional Chat

...From my perspective, there's a gaping hole in the community full of people that I almost never seen have a conversation with me and/or the rest of us in Skype (I shan't point any fingers, but obviously I mean people other than those that have left us or without Skype).

I'm probably going to sound like an idiot for asking this, and I probably know the answer, but why?

Simple Answer:

"... there's a Skype chat?"

[Calamus_Dash]

the Professional Chat

...From my perspective, there's a gaping hole in the community full of people that I almost never seen have a conversation with me and/or the rest of us in Skype (I shan't point any fingers, but obviously I mean people other than those that have left us or without Skype).

I'm probably going to sound like an idiot for asking this, and I probably know the answer, but why?

Simple Answer:

"... there's a Skype chat?"

I'm kind of wondering this too, the one chat that I'm in is always relatively dead. Is "Newcomers/Pro Peoples SUPA SECRET Skype chat" the 'official' one?
Also if its actually secret I apologize for making it un-secret.

[bartekko]

Basically, the skype chat is the place you get kicked from by interrobang Pie for not letting r34'd ponies be the chat's picture.

I'm just sayian

[Versilaryan]

There are a million of them at this point.=/

[Dr_Dissonance]

The Elephant in the Room

Let me tell you a story:

Once upon a time, in the magical land of Skype.
There was a large settlement of musical bronies who made camp in a group chat.
They were all happy and enjoyed their time chatting and generally being awesome.
But as time went on, differences started to become apparent.
Some bronies relished and played in the explicit roleplaying and spamming, but stayed silent during the beautiful discussions.
Eventually, the bronies who actually discussed things grew distant from the settlement.
They set forth to find their own settlement, where any discussions they did have wouldn't be interrupted and abandoned by someone else's attempts to cyber-grope another.
And thus, the brony music skype chat tore apart and now there are a number of settlements, scattered across the land...

tl:dr Some people don't want explicit roleplaying/spamming/general nuisances in a general chat, so other chats have been made, so that doesn't happen...

Also, I smell a fic...

[Interrobang Pie]

I'm kind of wondering this too, the one chat that I'm in is always relatively dead. Is "Newcomers/Pro Peoples SUPA SECRET Skype chat" the 'official' one?
Also if its actually secret I apologize for making it un-secret.

Hahah no.

Hit pretty much anyone that isn't Makkon or Orchestral Design up and they'll add you. If you don't have a username which is easily identifiable then I'll shout at you as soon as you join.

People often get kicked for saying the wrong things. They're always let back in in about 4 seconds so there's nothing to worry about.

If you're really really annoying though then I'll actually kick you.