Dear MLR

[Makkon]

The Brony Musicians Legislative Amendment
for the Better Cause of the Community

Dear MLR,

With the brony culture comes its ideals. For those of you who have existed with our community as established members, you can remember a time in the past when the community had its own ideals and values. You remember the old saying, to “love and tolerate.” I think that we have forgotten what that means. Love and tolerance goes both ways; it’s not just expecting people to treat you with acceptance, it’s also how you treat other people, and how you treat yourself.
The primary concern we have is in how behavior on the forum has been lately, and how attitudes have been assumed in the community. MLR has its own ideals and values, aiming to reflect the accepting, respectful, loving and tolerating nature that the bronies have become famous for holding dear to themselves. I want you to take a moment to reflect on your attitudes towards yourselves, your fellow musician friends, and newcomers that could potentially be new friends, as well:

How to not be a jerk

Sure, you can be mean to people that you know, because they know you’re joking. But you can’t treat everyone that way, because they don’t know you. And yes, we do hold this expectation to you. As a brony, and as a representative of MLR, you are expected to be a nice person. If you’re not a nice person, how can you call yourself a brony?

Respect: One of the simplest ways to be a nice person is to show respect for other people’s standards. I hang around a mixed crowd of people. My friends understand that I’m not a fan of swearing (I’ve only sworn when I’m mad) so they avoid it when they’re around me. I understand that not all of my friends are religious, so I avoid the topic when I’m around them. It’s showing respect for standards and preferences, as well as lifestyle.

Self Control: If you really can’t tolerate someone, like you just physically can’t, then open a new tab and watch some ponies. Part of being tolerant is actually tolerating. Sometimes there are people who offend us and there’s nothing we can do about it. It’s important to show some constraint and dignity in how you treat even people you can’t stand.


It’s the attitude

So you may be popular. But you’re popularity doesn’t exempt you from anything. It’s okay be be charismatic and proud of your work, but we all saw the episode on this; the attitude that your popularity makes you superior to others is unacceptable. You should treat everyone with respect, regardless of who you are, or who they are. Remember you started out at the bottom as well.
Because this recently has become a problem, many of you may be unaware of what this has done to some of our newer members. If only you knew. There is a huge gap in self esteem between starting musicians (who are your fans) and the popular artists. This gap gets bigger every day. The attitude of the popular musicians is the main cause of this rift, this cannot be denied. As their role models, we ask you to stop. You have the power to influence the brony community more than you may know. What would you like to be remembered for?

To the people who feel unappreciated or ostracized by the way you’ve been treated by your peers, hang in there. It gets better; all the musicians that you look up to started where you are right now, and there is no reason to feel inferior to these people solely based on popularity, or even the quality of their works compared to yours. The crucial thing to take away is that we as musicians are all equal human beings. It is important to have respect for yourself and to appreciate your talent. You are contributing something enjoyable to the fandom, going beyond what is expected of a fan. You are special in that respect, alone.
The numbers aren’t important. What’s important is the music, and that you enjoy it enough to create it. Never let that change. When music ceases to be a creative outlet, and starts to be a popularity contest, it loses its artistic merit. Make music for yourself, not for the numbers. This is what will bring you satisfaction.

On the other side of the computer

Skype is a great central hub for instant communications of all things music and ponies. It’s where the musicians come to get critiques, share ideas, and just shoot the breeze. But lately it’s been a place to channel negativity toward other members and general angst. It’s skype, we have no authority over what you do outside of MLR. But we don’t appreciate this negativity and trollish behavior taking any shape on the forum or in treatment toward other members in the community (in or out of MLR). This will not be tolerated at all, and there will be consequences.
Some may argue that we condone censorship. Well, we also condone a basic respect for others’ standards. We support ideals, not suppression. You have the freedom to do a lot of things, but what you do and say cannot and should not violate the rights of others. Posting pornography or graphic imagery (r34) is not acceptable, and also creates a serious legal issue. MLR could cease to exist if content of this nature is found on our site. Break this rule, and you will be banned.

If a skype chat wears the name of MLR, it claims to represent MLR. If it claims to represent MLR, it must uphold the same standards and rules of MLR. If it does not, it is not a representative. You must have approval to hold MLR in your skype chat name.


Love and Tolerance

We all know what it means to be a brony. It’s time we all acted the part. I feel many of us have forgotten what it means to love and tolerate, or we’ve bent the meaning to only suit our interests. If this selfishness and disregard for other people continues, this community will not last. It will fall apart, and we will all be to blame. Remember to be kind, generous, loyal, honest, friendly, and respectful. We all watch a show about how to be a good friend. Start paying attention.

Sincerely,

the MLR Staff

[Supersaw Hoover]

Just to be devil's advocate here, I want to point out that entirely eradicating and silencing all forms of unrest, disagreement and somewhat (if only subjectively) justified hate/extreme dislike could turn this community into a sterile groupthink, and that kind of sucks.

Stifling the inevitable controversies and angry rants and even good old-fashioned trolling long enough is like filling a balloon. Do it enough for long enough and it's bound to pop, and even if it doesn't pop, the community would feel the stretch of the balloon's rubber more and more. That is the effect of a community built upon "love and tolerance", and that is why the best (and smarted) pony communities have abandoned it months ago in favor of a more liberal approach where we all love ponies and all that but we still keep in mind that we're on the Internet and not in a little safe cube with smiley-faced cushions and the world isn't a happy place that everypony can reside in, especially without being able to understand when oneself is being trolled. That's the major thing here. This "love and tolerance" stuff has gone so far as to start to mean "if you don't agree with me, I'll just love and tolerate the shit out of you." That's stupid. It's just an engine to reinforce your own ideals and beliefs at that point and make you look like an arrogant dumbass while doing it. Bronies who are way too into the whole "love and tolerate" thing seem to have erased (or never had in the first place) the ability to understand that trolling is a thing and it won't go away, and that it is very easy to take in good spirits if you understand that it usually is not meant entirely in mean spirits.

tl;dr: "Love and tolerance" was okay for a while, but now it's just getting to be a nuisance because a lot of bronies are unlearning how to handle themselves on the Internet because of it.

[Makkon]

Supersaw, I think you missed the point.This isn't about trolling, just look at the linked gdoc and the newest thread welcoming our new mods We were obviously trolling eachother, and enjoying it). This is about treating people nicely, and adjusting your attitude. Please re-read the section entitled "its the attitude." Love and tolerance is what the brony community is supposed to be built off of, and no, it is not outdated or old fashioned. If we can't uphold that standard, don't expect this place to last. This isn't a general pony board, this is a forum of artists and musicians.

[Supersaw Hoover]

Supersaw, I think you missed the point.This isn't about trolling, just look at the linked gdoc and the newest thread welcoming our new mods We were obviously trolling eachother, and enjoying it). This is about treating people nicely, and adjusting your attitude. Please re-read the section entitled "its the attitude." Love and tolerance is what the brony community is supposed to be built off of, and no, it is not outdated or old fashioned. If we can't uphold that standard, don't expect this place to last. This isn't a general pony board, this is a forum of artists and musicians.

Well yes, I understand that you weren't talking about the friendly trolling that happens regularly. It just wouldn't be MLR without it. I suppose that the way I read your post, though, was that we should cease all trolling and other forms of like activity that doesn't fall into the context of friendly trolling. That's really why I dug into the whole "love and tolerance" thing.

I agree with most of "It's the attitude", but I can't say some level of cynicism doesn't help a little.

Regardless, I'm keeping my response there for posterity because I think it's a serious issue with the brony community at large, but I am not in disagreement with...eh...most of your post.

[PinkieGuy]

Several Valid Points

Whilst I agree with a lot of what you said Hoover, I think you're making a similar mistake to a few people who were lamenting the 'censorship' issue on skype a while back.

Although I can't speak for the MLR team as a whole, I don't believe that we're prohibiting disagreement, unrest or hate/dislike in the slightest. In fact, I believe that healthy disagreement and unrest are fundamental to any functioning community: it's how you move forward. The operative word here though is HEALTHY disagreement and such. Arguing about production values or chord usage is fine. People getting up in arms when an artist plagiarizes is totally justified. That does not meant that people in either cases should make things personal or respond disproportionate to the situation at hand.

As was mentioned earlier, there was discussion regarding censorship on skype when the split happened between the MegaSkypes and the Music Discussion and MLR thread and such. The point of such a split (as far as I see it) was to have a professional face to MLR in skype, because a lot of MLR's community activity does happen in Skype. The reason that particular Skype chat has rules and guidelines in place that differ from the Megaskype is both due to the liabilities that Makkon mentioned, and to make that chat as available to the broader musician community and those new to MLR as possible.

Now, everything that was removed from the MLR Skype chat is not being prohibited in totality. Trolling and R34 posting ARE a part of our clique'd culture. We're just endorsing these elements happening OUTSIDE of the Sanctioned MLR area, and that any elements of trolling are both kept classy and are not reaching the point of victimization (I'm here referring to concerns raised by Artemus way back when).


Now to address the issue of personal disagreements. I agree Hoover: "Love and Tolerance" has recently been developing a aura of "Loving One Self, and Tolerating The Sound Of Your Voice Above All Others". I mean this in a broader internet sense. What we're asking though is actually to love and tolerate people here. Lord knows, there are people on these forums that I personally have a particular dislike for, caused by a multitude of reasons. However, what benefit do I get from critiquing them, harrassing them, disagreeing with them and so forth?

Nil.

And when they do say things that I disagree with or things that grind on my nerves, the best route is to present my case to them in a manner that I think they will understand, and if they continue to disagree, i'll let it rest.

I get it, this can be hard. I am being particular in my choice of words here though: presenting your own disagreements can be done in a tolerant way if you ensure that you voice your opinions whilst expressing yourself in a manner that you think they will understand. Placing oneself outside of one's own shoes is a solid step towards better communication, and it can make annoying comments that tiny bit less irksome as well.

I feel that at this point, i've started rambling, and as such, will add more thoughts tomorrow morning.




TL;DR: All we need is love. All we need is love. All we need is love, love, love. Love is all we need.

[Diss Order]

One of the simplest ways to be a nice person is to show respect for other people’s standards.

^This.

Since I consider pretty much all of you as my friends (even if I sometimes jokingly tease you): please don't post r34 links without nsfw warning when I'm around. It's something I don't want to be associated with at all. To each their own, sure, but if I click on your link and my mother walks into the room, I don't want her to see crazy fetishes applied to cartoon ponies plastered on a plasma screen... Please?

Same thing for big, elaborate discussions about bestiality or clopping to pony plot... Next time I'll just leave whenever the subject arises, instead of starting a shitstorm. Sorry for being intolerant... (?!?!?!)

P.S. This is just a suggestion, but ban it from the prelisten streams as well. It wouldn't even be THAT bad if it was just a skypecall, but making a full-screen analysis of a scat image to about 80~100 stream watchers, just minutes after Sethisto left the call... Imo that's just outright irresponsible and rude. You guys might think it's okay, but a huge part of the fandom thinks it's disgusting. One moment you represent the prelisteners Seth recruited for his brony newssite, and the next moment you stream NSFW stuff to the same stream crowd... Think about that for a second, please.

Sorry for coming across as a whiny bitch, but this is something that genuinely bothers me...

P.P.S. Sorry for being rude in an IRC conversation and that one derail in the prelisten topic a few weeks ago. I was really pissed and if I hurt someone's feelings, I'm sorry...

[Makkon]

P.S. This is just a suggestion, but ban it from the prelisten streams as well. It wouldn't even be THAT bad if it was just a skypecall, but making a full-screen analysis of a scat image to about 80~100 stream watchers, just minutes after Sethisto left the call... Imo that's just outright irresponsible and rude. You guys might think it's okay, but a huge part of the fandom thinks it's disgusting. One moment you represent the prelisteners Seth recruited for his brony newssite, and the next moment you stream NSFW stuff to the same stream crowd... Think about that for a second, please.

Are you serious?
The prelisteners are direct recruits from MLR and are supposed to be our representatives for EQD. Seriously, guys, you're free to do whatever you want outside of MLR influence, but this is unacceptable.

Does Seth know this happened?

[PinkieGuy]

Are you serious?
The prelisteners are direct recruits from MLR and are supposed to be our representatives for EQD. Seriously, guys, you're free to do whatever you want outside of MLR influence, but this is unacceptable.

Does Seth know this happened?

Totally agree with everything you said here Makkon.

Out of wondering, who actually ARE our pre-listeners? I've never found out.

[Diss Order]

The prelisteners... I think it can be pretty much anyone from here, as long as they're sane enough to explain their opinion. Music is prelistened by people in a skypecall hosted by Mic and Seth just posts links to the videos, the call gets muted, people listen to the track, and then everyone states their opinion and votes either yes or no.

I was told that if you want to prelisten: just ask to be invited to the call and you're in.

[Icky]

I wasn't there, so I cant really judge the situation but Mic's stream doesn't really have anything to do with the prelistening.

[Interrobang Pie]

Good to see a PSA that doesn't totally want my head.

Okay so uh let's get started!

"Love and tolerance" has always been a pretty stupid submeme. It's just like "your argument is invalid" - a petty way out of situations so that you don't have to stand your ground. Similarly, the implication that bronies = nice just doesn't make any sense. Bronies = bronies. That's it.

I tolerate and pull punches on people where I think it's necessary. Not every problem can be tackled the same way, after all.


I shan't comment on the Megaskype/official/pro Skype chat splits, specifically. I think you all know my feelings on those particular events anyway.

However, I will add that the Megaskype isn't a rule-less bloodthirsty battlefield. I have had to intervene in certain scenarios and I do employ mods who do the same when I'm not around. The fear of "chat breaking" that the pro chat's guidelines state is not due to trolls, but due to Skype. It's just a thing that happens because Skype is the best kind of program.

As for the R34, yeah. Just yeah, it happens. I guess I expect people to know that I'm one for posting R34 quite frequently - that's a personal flaw. But, I also expect that people who won't want to see it just won't click on it. That's how you go about the internet, is it not?


Prelistening is pretty fun, yes. I guess all you have to do to get in is be a competent musician and ask Mic. When Seth leaves the call, it stops being a prelistening session and starts being Mic's personal stream. We're not the people to talk to about that. (I have actually been slightly irksome about the streaming of something that is supposed to be a secret. Oh well.)


We're only 6 months in, so things will change for us yet - whether for the better or the worse, I can't tell. Our more loyal, endquote, members will stay with MLR regardless of what happens. I've also said before that we will stay friends even after the end of MLR.

[Diss Order]

I wasn't there, so I cant really judge the situation but Mic's stream doesn't really have anything to do with the prelistening.

Except that he streams it...?

@the 2 posts above me: saying they're not related is wacky. Perhaps we could make a seperate channel for the prelistening stream and leave Mic's personal stream his personal stream?

[H8_Seed]

I'm not going to state my opinion one way or the other, I'm just gonna say this.

From the exact moment I swore into the US Navy, every single fellow service member I have ever encountered has told me the exact same thing: above all else, I represent the fighting spirit of the Navy and those who have gone before me to defend freedom and democracy around the world. This means that, at ALL times, I am the face of the US Navy, and I am expected to act like it. It's a bit less strict with this community, as there's no contract or anything of that nature.
The long and the short of it is, the leaders of this community are going to take it in whatever direction they desire. It's fortunate that they keep my interests in mind, but at the end of the day, I'm not the one making decisions, they are. I choose to be part of this community and uphold what it represents to music, to bronies, and to the friends I've made. I don't find it particularly unreasonable to ask the same of you guys, because you choose to be here too.

At the end of the day, you're free to leave or stay with the community, but it won't change the fact that I care about each and every goddamn one of you.

[DJShamrock]

From the exact moment I swore into the US Navy, every single fellow service member I have ever encountered has told me the exact same thing: above all else, I represent the fighting spirit of the Navy and those who have gone before me to defend freedom and democracy around the world. This means that, at ALL times, I am the face of the US Navy, and I am expected to act like it. It's a bit less strict with this community, as there's no contract or anything of that nature.

*NAVY BROHOOF*

*ahem*

I think we can all come to a rather easy medium here. In all honesty I haven't heard that much division between the most extreme viewpoints so far stated in this thread, so I think we all know what's important here and we simply disagree on a few minor things. But to be honest that hasn't ever seemed to stop the world from turning has it?

I don't use the forum really (was linked this on Skype) and I hardly participate in composition contests or the like so my only real function is carrying on pony-related non-music or just general discussion. And occasionally stabbing BronyJake, but that's neither here nor there.

The crucial thing of it is that we're all Bronies, and we're all musicians (of one form or another). And I maintain that both are extremely subjective materials. You can bash someone's character, aye. But bashing how much of a brony or musician they are, just doesn't make sense. Because in the end no matter how much it may make you kick and scream, they are still a brony, and they are still a musician. Just like you and me. And love and tolerance don't have nothin' to do with it.

Except seaponies. Seaponies are the lowest beings on the planet.

inb4 racism

[Whitetail]

The fear of "chat breaking" that the pro chat's guidelines state is not due to trolls, but due to Skype. It's just a thing that happens because Skype is the best kind of program.

The Megaskype is the only chat I have ever seen break in all my history of using skype, of being large and small, active and inactive chat rooms. It's kind of hard to blame that on the program.

As for the whole pre-listening thing - guess that's just because they chose to host it on someone's personal stream, someone might want to go ahead and make a serious one just for pre-listening if we're going to take this seriously.

[Rainbowdutch]

The fear of "chat breaking" that the pro chat's guidelines state is not due to trolls, but due to Skype. It's just a thing that happens because Skype is the best kind of program.

The Megaskype is the only chat I have ever seen break in all my history of using skype, of being large and small, active and inactive chat rooms. It's kind of hard to blame that on the program.



As for the whole pre-listening thing - guess that's just because they chose to host it on someone's personal stream, someone might want to go ahead and make a serious one just for pre-listening if we're going to take this seriously.

It is not hosted on his personal stream. He streams While we do the prelistening in the Skype chat.

But this threat is not about Mic this is about respecting each other, and every one of those wise words that came out of makkons mouth. The prelistener chat isn't related to mlr and neither is Mic so there is no way of forcing either of the two to behave.

[Makkon]

Okay, so the skypechat shenanigans are something we touched on, but it's not really the main issue here. Sorry for not making that clear.

It's this:

It’s the attitude

So you may be popular. But you’re popularity doesn’t exempt you from anything. It’s okay be be charismatic and proud of your work, but we all saw the episode on this; the attitude that your popularity makes you superior to others is unacceptable. You should treat everyone with respect, regardless of who you are, or who they are. Remember you started out at the bottom as well.
Because this recently has become a problem, many of you may be unaware of what this has done to some of our newer members. If only you knew. There is a huge gap in self esteem between starting musicians (who are your fans) and the popular artists. This gap gets bigger every day. The attitude of the popular musicians is the main cause of this rift, this cannot be denied. As their role models, we ask you to stop. You have the power to influence the brony community more than you may know. What would you like to be remembered for?

To the people who feel unappreciated or ostracized by the way you’ve been treated by your peers, hang in there. It gets better; all the musicians that you look up to started where you are right now, and there is no reason to feel inferior to these people solely based on popularity, or even the quality of their works compared to yours. The crucial thing to take away is that we as musicians are all equal human beings. It is important to have respect for yourself and to appreciate your talent. You are contributing something enjoyable to the fandom, going beyond what is expected of a fan. You are special in that respect, alone.
The numbers aren’t important. What’s important is the music, and that you enjoy it enough to create it. Never let that change. When music ceases to be a creative outlet, and starts to be a popularity contest, it loses its artistic merit. Make music for yourself, not for the numbers. This is what will bring you satisfaction.

We just want everyone to understand this division, and the serious problem that it creates. All we ask is for everyone to check themselves.

"Love and tolerance" has always been a pretty stupid submeme. It's just like "your argument is invalid" - a petty way out of situations so that you don't have to stand your ground. Similarly, the implication that bronies = nice just doesn't make any sense. Bronies = bronies. That's it.

The actual meaning of love an tolerance was why I joined this fandom in the first place. If that is irrelevant, then why am I here? Perhaps in a lot of people's experience they've found that love and tolerance doesn't exist in the brony fandom, and that it's just a meaningless motto, but from many people that I've interacted with I have found it to be a very real thing, right from the begging.



Anyway, I don't think people here have a problem with showing love and tolerance. We just want them to not be exclusive with it, and show it to everyone. No more telling your fans to 'screw off' because they want to know how you made something, and no more 'the number of subscribers I have is the value I have as a musician.'

[Aussie]

My friends understand that I’m not a fan of swearing (I’ve only sworn when I’m mad) so they avoid it when they’re around me.

Oh, man, I remember swearing like a sailor around you a few days ago in the Musician Chat. I'll make sure to watch my mouth now, sorry. <3

Other than that. Uh. I don't have much of an opinion. I pretty much agree with what Makkon said.

[Versilaryan]

I have no idea what's been going on; I've been pretty disconnected with the community lately...

But seriously, guys, what Makkon said shouldn't be said at all. We're here to improve, not to show off how much better than everypony else we are. And treating other people with respect is a given. Especially the newer members who don't know how much you're joking.

[Senator Myth]

-

[Circuitfry]

The Megaskype is the only chat I have ever seen break in all my history of using skype, of being large and small, active and inactive chat rooms. It's kind of hard to blame that on the program.

I've been in another chat that likes to snark at movies. I showed them a particularly horrible movie, "Killer Klowns From Outer Space." Within 15 minutes, we had riffed it so damn bad that it broke. Skype chats can break from too much activity, it is totally the fault of the users, but we're practically a special case. Skype wasn't designed to handle us.

http://youtu.be/kds1B-ANhAI

THE PROGRAM CAN'T EVEN HANDLE ME RIGHT NOW

[Flutterbro]

You know what is designed for that?

irc.

[Aussie]

MYTH

[Makkon]

Myth, I'm really going to miss you. You and a few others who have discussed these things with us are the sole reason why we're trying to address this issue now. I appreciate your input, your help, your insight and critique, and your honesty. Don't ever change who you are, because you're not wrong.

[Diss Order]

Really, ALL I've been hearing today was 'this is not an official MLR chat, so we don't have to give a damn about MLR rules kthxbye'. We're a community, and if 95% of the people in a certain chatroom are part of the same community then you can't tell me it's not related. I'm not saying I've been mistreated or anything, quite the contrary actually. I've had a LOT of fun talking to you MLR people the past week. But if people tell me my argument is invalid because 'I'm a newby' (which I am definetely not, in so many ways...) then something really snaps for me. I think the so-called 'attitude' that comes with the internet fame some of us are experiencing is really a downer... not just to new musicians, but I'm really discouraged as well. Most of the times I don't even feel like I belong here because I don't have enough youtube subscribers to be taken seriously.

But... yeah, Senator Myth, as much as I hate to see you leave, I think your post was a necessary one. What you just addressed is one of my MAIN problems with this community. I don't know if it's still like this, but even in the IRC I would get verbally crucified if I told someone I didn't want to know about their sexual affinity towards horses. I literally entered the IRC channel of this site a few weeks ago, the one linked to in the menu below the header, and I find myself in a discussion with people who are literally justifying bestiality (not just r34, I'm talking about actual bestiality) and telling me that I'm being stupid for not tolerating who they are... I want to be able to chat with brony musicians and contribute to this amazing fanmusic community without getting slapped across the face with nsfw-material all the time, is that so hard?

But luckily, I can see improvement is made. The music discussion and pro discussion chatrooms have been perfectly clean and I can talk about music and ponystuff all I want without having to worry about spontaneous r34 references or other inappropriate behavior. This is a GOOD thing, and that should be addressed as well! Giving feedback doesn't just mean complaining about what's bad, but it also means addressing what's good. And this is something I really approve of.

Now I just hope the IRC will stay clear of that stuff as well. I mean, if you really HAVE to talk about r34 then you could just make a new room for it. "/join r34discussion" or something, it's as easy as that!