My friend may stop watching MLP

[penguindf12]

Please, nopony get up in arms about this; he's a good friend and I value his opinions and feelings -- not to mention the fact that I understand where he is coming from, and agree with him on several (but not all) points.

First of all, he's a casual fan, and not really a 'brony' (a term I'm not really particularly fond of anyway). But we would always sit down and watch new episodes together, and talk about the show. We're roommates, and art majors (I study music, he's studying film/visual arts).

Anyway, after watching "Lesson Zero" for the first time today, we talked about it. After *I* had first watched it (I had seen it the morning it came out), I was pretty concerned -- the episode was difficult for me to watch. He felt the same way. He pointed out some things I didn't notice at first -- how the art style was different, for instance (a result, I guess, of a bigger budget and such). He mentioned how the first season (Discord episodes included in that figure) had its own distinct visual language, that he felt was violated in "Lesson Zero." (I disagree, personally, not minding the new angles and things so much)

Anyway, we both agreed that the pacing was very "off", and quite different from the first season -- the huge amount of visual gags, crammed to the gills. We were reminded of typical "internet"-style fast pacing, just chunks and chunks of coded "references" tossed out without much internal logic or real developmental craft. Specifically, the character development bothered me. Many things felt incredibly "inauthentic" and forced -- like cries for attention. And most people loved it, evidenced by comments like this on YouTube (this one was most "liked"):

"1. Checklist Checklist Checklist Orgy 2. Crazed Twilight 3. Hinted Appledash 4. Ninja Fluttershy off's a bear 5. Rarity's new catchphrase 6. Big Mac's 'nope' 7. Big Mac gets tackled by Mares and explodes them off 8. Rainbow N-Boom 9. Now everybody writes to the Princess 10. Derpy vs. the Mayor 11. Discord Doll 12. Mac takes the doll even though it's not enchanted anymore (brony joke) 13. "I like her mane" 14. RD's sunglasses BEST EPISODE YET, WITH +14 INTERNETS!!! "

I know this is a personal thing, but I really dislike this sort of thing -- and I guess even this I could stand, but most of the things mentioned in the episode just make me cringe -- I could see the writing behind it from a mile away. Sure, one or two is fine. But this is too much. It feels downright incestuous, and worse -- I know that if I watched "Lesson Zero," without knowing anything about FiM, I would dismiss the show in a heartbeat. It hurts to watch. When you feel like someone you trust breaks that trust, it hurts, and you start to fall out of love.

Of course, I love the show. Of course I'm going to keep watching, all of the season. But my friend told me that if the next episode has the same character and pacing issues, he's going to give up hope -- and I just might as well. If the whole season feels as forced and inauthentic as "Lesson Zero," to me it's just another kid's show. I mean, who wants to watch another kid's show, made to order, with no magic? I guess it had to happen sometime.

I know a lot of you enjoyed the episode, and I know that change is not bad. I can take change -- I can't take a breach of trust. It feels contrived, or corporate. It's definitely not "little-girly" anymore, but really that was never the problem in the first place.

If you have an opposing viewpoint, that's understandable. Good people can have a different sense of what is "good" or "authentic" and what isn't -- I am not the eternal arbiter of taste -- but I feel how I feel. Even if I do accept the faster pace and more self-aware gag style (assuming that that is in fact the trend, which I do not know, but I have a gut feeling it is), I've lost a friend to talk about the show with -- sure, he may watch new episodes occasionally, but I could understand if he didn't want to; it'd probably just hurt. Even for me, it would be like hanging out with a girlfriend you've grown apart from; the only thing keeping you together is your history -- without that, they're just another person, no longer special.

In any case, even if you disagree, we all know that the show will someday decline, and that it probably won't be pretty -- it's too much of a brand name to hope for a quiet, graceful death. I guess I just wanted to say how I felt.

[Makkon]

Remember how there's some episodes in season 1 that you don't remember because they were lame? Each episode has a different set of writers. It's how it works in the episodic cartoon business.

For example, the Owl episode. What was with that ketchup scene?

If both Discord episodes are to be ANY indication of the real direction the show is going, I think you can stick around and can stand to bear a few off episodes like last season. :]

[penguindf12]

I sure hope so

There were some episodes in season 1 I definitely wasn't fond of; basically "The Show Stoppers", "A Dog and Pony Show", and "Owl's Well" were the only ones I disliked.

But still, those seemed to have a sort of consistency to them. Then again, maybe it's just the combination of this being the first ep of the "new batch" (remember the Discord line was made during season 1 production), and it being an episode I strongly dislike.

But really, it's the *quality* of the "lameness" that bothers me. Sure, the episodes I mentioned above have some pacing/characterization issues in my opinion; but this is the first episode that seems negative because of MORE attention, whereas those seemed to falter from LESS. Plus, Meghan McCarthy was one of my -favorite- writers: "Party of One," "Green Isn't Your Color", "Dragonshy", and "Call of the Cutie" are all top-tier episodes for me.

[bartekko]

you know, the fim is a commercial show, no matter how you look at it, it's made to sell stuff. I liked the ep, though, more than "over a barrel" I don't remember at all (I hate wild west), or "friendship is magic 1+2"

but yeah, I'm a meme-iac, mane-iac (so many good puns here)

[Interrobang Pie]

(so many good puns here)

Circuitfry: fries circuits of this whole topic, one at a time (I know that's not how servers work, but Puns work all the time)

I dunno, I quite enjoyed it. I didn't think it was nearly as crammed as the episodes 1 and 2 were, yet they were both still very enjoyable. But then to me, season 1 was just empty and there were a lot of sections that I just didn't like at all - Sonic Rainboom, my favourite episode from season 1, had a great beginning and great ending, but the middle was really weak.

I don't think season 1 had me laughing quite as much as season 2 has so far - I've found it's entertaining throughout. Maybe it was because I was watching it with loads of other bronies in a stream? I dunno.

I see what you mean about the forced memes - LOTS of exploitables with the episodes so far. But then, is this such a bad thing? The sections of the show we can just see all the time and laugh, the sections of the show on which people can build their own ideas, doesn't this make the whole experience more enjoyable? Of course, it will get old eventually - as do all memes, and as will FiM.

Still, I find it difficult to judge because we're only a short way in. And as has been said, different writers have different styles. We'll have to persevere.

[bartekko]

But then to me, season 1 was just empty and there were a lot of sections that I just didn't like at all - Sonic Rainboom, my favourite episode from season 1, had a great beginning and great ending, but the middle was really weak.

I don't think season 1 had me laughing quite as much as season 2 has so far

The sections of the show we can just see all the time and laugh, the sections of the show on which people can build their own ideas, doesn't this make the whole experience more enjoyable? Of course, it will get old eventually - as do all memes, and as will FiM.

these, these a milion times <trollbrohoof>

[Tephnos]

I do agree with you, I didn't really like the episode at all. As far as I can remember, the writer who wrote that episode was the same guy who did Dragonshy - a great episode. However, like I said in the other thread, I'll pass it as a one off so long as it isn't the same in the Luna episode. If so, I'll be disappointed.

[Senator Myth]

EVERYONE STAY CALM. OF ALL THE THINGS THAT COULD HAPPEN, THIS IS NOT THE WORST

POSSIBLE

THING.

(also if tl;dr, skip to the second point)

PART ONE

I always knew that people would freak out over the first episode of the second season if it was anything less than exactly what they were expecting. The creators of the show made a few mistakes. They've made mistakes before. In writing, in animation. They've made artistic mistakes. We've forgiven them. I think that the main issue here is that in this case, these mistakes related to characterization.

1a
The animators may have gone a bit overboard with Twilight's crazy expressions. Beyond the control of the writers, yes. I enjoyed them immensely, but I could definitely understand how some might have been disturbed by how consistently crazy she looked. It probably could have been forgiven, though, if the writers had not made a really simple and stupid mistake.

1b
Twilight's motivation. No, Dex, speaking on my honor as a writer, there were no issues with pacing in this episode. I didn't see any issue with her actions, because I thought she had ample motivation: avoiding "magic kindergarten". But I can definitely understand how some people would be displeased by this. Even though it's acceptable, it's certainly not ideal.

Whoever came up with this concept of "magic kindergarten" should be sent to bed without supper. It casts a pall of silliness and levity to Twilight's motivations, when a much better idea would have been to simply go with something we can all believe, and all feel:

Friendship. They should have just stuck with the simple motivation of "I don't want to lose my friends." Because we don't want her to, either. It would have been so much more poignant, and it would have explained so much better the extent to which she was driven to get the letter written. And it's just a simpler idea.

I want to thwack the writer on the nose. "Magic Kindergarten" is acceptable, but "friendship" would have been so much more effective in every way.

Dex, you mentioned the "moral event horizon" in the other thread. I don't think that this term properly applies here by any means. "Moral event horizon" refers to really awful stuff, stuff that makes it utterly impossible to ever sympathize with the character. What you're basically saying is that when you were watching the episode, you kept asking TWILIGHT? HOW CAN YOU NAZI!?!?.

Twilight's Nazi-ing would have been much more understandable and sympathetic if they had left this magic kindergarten bullshit out.

It's just a mistake that the writers made. It's not the end of the world. Keep calm, you'll be safe with ponies.


PART TWO: Some Perspective

Let's play a simple game: let's take some episodes from Season 1 and pretend they were the opener for Season 2, and gauge the possible reactions from the Brony fandom.

Owl's Well
...Well, fuck, the writers just ran out of juice. This show is boring and stupid now. Why is an owl a member of the mane cast? WHY DID THEY OPEN WITH A SPIKE CENTRIC EPISODE? IS THIS JUST GOING TO BE "THE SPIKE SHOW" FROM NOW ON?

/ragequit fandom

Over a Barrel
Wait what the fuck? What the hell are the writers doing? Why are we on a train and in the middle of the desert? THE WRITERS HAVE JUMPED THE SHARK AND WE'LL NEVER SEE PONYVILLE AGAIN.

/ragequit fandom

Party of One
The creators of the show made Cupcakes canon. That's the only explanation, if this were the Season 2 opener. Why, of all things, Cupcakes? Next are they going to have Fluttershy become a rapper? Rarity into a marshmallow? WHY ALL THESE STUPID MEMES IN THE MAIN SHOW? And why Cupcakes? Cupcakes is the worst. possible. thing. I hate this show now.

/ragequit fandom

Call of the Cutie

the internet would have exploded in a fit of manly rage. If this had been our first view of the CMC, right at the start of the episode, the intertubes would run black with hate. The very walls of Equestria Daily would begin to weep blood. We would have risen as one and BURNED DOWN STUDIO B WITH LEMONS

No, seriously. We would have panicked like no other, if Season 2's opener would have been the first view of the CMC. Even I would have. Why are they trying to replace the mane cast? They're trying to alienate the bronies and bring the show into a younger audience. They're trying to sell more toys. Hasbro hates us. Corporate is the enemy. WE MUST ESTABLISH A DICTATORSHIP OF THE PROLETARIAT to get our ponies back.

BRONIES FOR WORLD REVOLUTION®



Think about that for a minute. Stop extrapolating. Calm down. Even if the next episode isn't what you hope for. It'll all be okay. Don't judge the show dead and ruined forever based on one episode you didn't particularly care for.

Here's a handy image to explain the dangers of extrapolating:


--Tater out

[X-Trav]

I've seen a lot of these kind of things around the community. It really worries me, some of you have put this show too high on a pedestal. The main reason most of are here is because we were so caught off guard by this show in the first place. Factually, this show is marketed to little girls and for most of us, that was what we were thinking about our first time watching. The show turned out to be really good, and it shifted a paradigm in us.

Now that we are all under the mentality that this is show is awesome, we want it to always be awesome, and we want each episode to be better than the last.

That is poison.

Think about what's on Saturday. LUNA. People are hyped as fuck for this episode, me included. (Luna is my favorite) But think about the premise, it's going to be a Halloween episode. As much as I would like otherwise, I expect the Halloween to be a cheesy as possible. Remember when Twilight told a parody of the headless horseman in her slumber party? It's a children's show expect something like that. Expect Rainbow Dash to try and scare everyone and in turn get scared herself. Expect Fluttershy to complain the whole episode.

You just cant keep your expectations so high, or else you will be sorely disappointed.

[Tephnos]

I've seen a lot of these kind of things around the community. It really worries me, some of you have put this show too high on a pedestal. The main reason most of are here is because we were so caught off guard by this show in the first place. Factually, this show is marketed to little girls and for most of us, that was what we were thinking about our first time watching. The show turned out to be really good, and it shifted a paradigm in us.

Now that we are all under the mentality that this is show is awesome, we want it to always be awesome, and we want each episode to be better than the last.

That is poison.

Think about what's on Saturday. LUNA. People are hyped as fuck for this episode, me included. (Luna is my favorite) But think about the premise, it's going to be a Halloween episode. As much as I would like otherwise, I expect the Halloween to be a cheesy as possible. Remember when Twilight told a parody of the headless horseman in her slumber party? It's a children's show expect something like that. Expect Rainbow Dash to try and scare everyone and in turn get scared herself. Expect Fluttershy to complain the whole episode.

You just cant keep your expectations so high, or else you will be sorely disappointed.

Perhaps, but for me personally, even the most hated episodes of season 1 I enjoyed. The only things I didn't like were the cutie mark crusaders just because they annoyed me; the episodes themselves were still good.

Something just seemed genuinely off about the latest one, and not in a good way. All I'm saying is, if it's a one off, then I will enjoy the episode for what it was. An ode to the modern, wacky cartoon. If the entire show has changed to that kind of direction, then I will be put off as that's one of the main reasons I don't like modern cartoons at all.

[Freewave]

I've seen a lot of these kind of things around the community. It really worries me, some of you have put this show too high on a pedestal. The main reason most of are here is because we were so caught off guard by this show in the first place. Factually, this show is marketed to little girls and for most of us, that was what we were thinking about our first time watching. The show turned out to be really good, and it shifted a paradigm in us.

Now that we are all under the mentality that this is show is awesome, we want it to always be awesome, and we want each episode to be better than the last.

That is poison.

Reminds me about that quote about heroin, that every junkie is chasing after that amazing initial high that they first had and getting reduced returns every time.

I think for most bronies it took them a few shows to get into it but they get the idea that its' for their age group or that they see all the eps and then get tired of waiting once a week for new ones. Either way its really the fanbase that elevates the show; whether its the music, art, youtube jokes, blog posts. If that remains I don't see why most fans who like the overall culture wouldn't stick around.

[MYCUTIEMARKISAGUN]

Studio B is in the freakin zone this season. Haters Gonna Hate.

[Pickslide1992]

Personally, I was taken aback by Lesson Zero as well. That's what I call the "Brony Episode," since it has a lot of pandering to our fanbase (Rarity overreacting over every little thing, Fluttershy "wrestling" a bear, Twilight slowly but surely going insane, Rainbow Dash in sunglasses and the Sonic Rainbomb, "Eenope!"), but after that, there hasn't been a lot of pandering our way, outside of a few instances (The most famous being, of course, Derpy's speaking role in Last Roundup).

If anything, that's the only "bad" episode I know of this season. I thought it was okay, but the story could have been handled much better. It was teetering on high-octane nightmare fuel, if only for insane Twilight. (It freaked out plenty of bronies, no telling how many little kids had nightmares) But like I said, thankfully, the other episodes have gotten better on both a technical and creative level.

As for the fanbase, we, as with every fandom, have some nutters and lunatics, sometimes acting as a small but vocal group that gives the entire fanbase a bad rap. This is a community of talented artists, musicians, writers, etc. and I think of that side rather than the ones who'll force ponies on someone so much he/she will not even give it the time of day. Every fandom has "Fan dumb" and bronies are no exception, but the idea is to ignore them. Ignore the ones who exploit bronies for no other reason than personal gain. Ignore the ones who act like every change is another nail in the coffin for the show. Guys, we still have plenty of episodes in season 2 left, with season 3 already greenlit. Do you honestly think Hasbro will kill their golden goose now?

If anything, things are looking up for bronies, at least in terms of Hasbro releasing characters in toy form including Trixie, Zecora, and a white Celestia. Loads of people who work on the show regularly talk to fans and answer questions (Daniel Ingram, in particular, is a huge example of this). There's talks of a DVD release containing more than just 2-3 episodes. Not to mention the creativity and ingenuity of this fanbase is limitless to where even when the show is cancelled, they'll be mountains of fan works that'll tide us over for years (At least for me). So I really see no reason to abandon ship now. Who knows what Hasbro or Studio B will pull out of their sleeves next.

[Pashoo]

Speculations

Uh, I'm just gonna bring this back and point out (Hindsight is 20-20, after all):

Season 2 was pretty cool. Like, all of it.

[penguindf12]

I think it's just a big thing if you get super-obsessed, and it ends up being like a breakup. Not promoting this style of relating to shows, though.

[Trillionage]

Personally i sorta started feeling the same after the Derpy fiasco, but not because i felt insulted because they changed it something stupid like that. IT was the drama and how people were acting so entitled. Like if the show was meant for the bronies and that whoever did not like Derpy (for a legitimate reason, people who were just bitching because she was not called Ditsy also put me in a bad mood) should just shut up, it kinda gave me a sour taste in my mouth.

While it passed for me and i slowly have gotten to like Derpy somewhat again (though seeing sad derpy images now just make me facepalm and cringe), i personally refuse to see the Last Roundup, especially on Youtube because it's very likely that more than half the comments is people just whining.

[MYCUTIEMARKISAGUN]

oh you Lesson Zero haters

threadstarter, the most sensible solution is clearly to just KIDNAP YOUR FRIEND AND *TORTURE* THEM UNTIL THEY LOVE THE SHOW AGAIN. I RECOMMEND PLIERS. OR A RAT, A STEEL BUCKET, AND A BLOWTORCH. IN THE NAME OF LOVE & TOLERANCE, AMEN.

some of you have put this show too high on a pedestal

oh man, I felt this so much during Season 2. I'd see bronies whine about plot twists being too obvious, as if they were expecting the sort of out-of-nowhere, jaw-dropping WHAM EPISODE bombshells that say, Homeland or Breaking Bad will pull off effortlessly. Like, you gotta be freaking kidding me. Those shows can do that because they really are the best shows on TV. MLP: FIM is not on their level. Not even close. Its a show about magical candy-colored ponies. It will never be THE WIRE for God's sake. Hell, FIM isn't even on The Venture Bros or The Boondocks level. We are in the Golden Age of Television. There are ALOT of great shows out there. (on cable lol)

An ode to the modern, wacky cartoon.

RANT ON

Okay, THIS is why me and you Lesson Zero haters got beef. "modern"? Wha? Have you never heard of Looney Toons? Did you never see the classic "Goofy Gymnastics"? Does the name "Tex Avery" not ring a bell? What do you think a CARTOON is supposed to be? Western Animation was built on two foundations: 1) Lushly animated feature length epics, 2) Wacky short film vignettes that are just jokes jokes jokes, several of which will fly over the kids heads. Dammit, WACKY CARTOONS BUILT THIS COUNTRY YOU UNAMURKKKAN COMMIE.

RANT OFF

[Matthew N.]

Please don't hate me, but having read the thread title only one response came to my mind:

[VINXIS]

I personally had no problem watching MOST of the episodes, Season 2 was all g, but the only episode I didn't like as much was "Call of the Cutie" because I don't like-those-three...

[Kagetori]

Guess I'm the only one who likes the episodes that involve the CMC and Spike because they show different views of less cared for characters.

[Quix]

Wow, huge bump. Anyways, I had the same experience as the OP with Lesson Zero. I came into Season 2 in January, so I watched Lesson Zero immediately after the Discord episodes, and I really didn't like it. There was something distinctly different about it that made me feel a bit more negatively about Season 2 for a while.

[Versilaryan]

The pacing was quite a bit too fast the first three episodes. But then all was well by Nightmare Night. ^^

[penguindf12]

The pacing was quite a bit too fast the first three episodes. But then all was well by Nightmare Night. ^^

I do like that episode ^^

As an update, I did end up watching S2 up through Ep. 14... but then I kinda stopped. I just don't enjoy the show any more. Some of my friends got me to watch "Hurricane Fluttershy", but I just don't like the new style. I did like the middle parts of "Hearts & Hooves" and some of "Find a Pet". I'll probably have to chill out a couple years before I can assess the rest of it... but I will be there when S3 hits the scene

edit/ I do have a good argument as to why I don't like the series any more, but I'm reluctant to have a discussion unless someone is interested. I don't want to come off as a hater or killjoy -- it is an important subject to me. But yeah

[VINXIS]

but I will be there when S3 hits the scene

I think everyone will be. Even the ones who had quit the fandom since Faust isn't here anymore, things will change quite quickly.