Help with mixing snares + kicks

[ChocolateChicken]

So I'm in the mixing stage in a song, and the biggest problem I see is where the kicks and the snares are playing in the same instant.

The pattern is [kick], [hat], [kick+snare], [hat]. Whenever that kick + snare is played, the master volume shoots way up more than at any other part of the song, with a dynamic range of about 5dB, which would be a nightmare for the mastering stage. D:
I looked at the frequency analyzer, and it seems that the common prevalent frequency range in both the snare and the kick is the 190 - 210Hz range.

TL;DR: The question is, should I remove the kick drum at parts where the snare hits, or should I EQ out the 200Hz from one of those drums?

More info: I understand that giving a kick drum that 150 - 200Hz range really adds to its roundness and punch, and also allows it to be heard better on smaller speakers, so cutting out that range will be a huge loss to the power of the kick. For snares, that range is the body, and without that range there is only that crispy high end. So I think that's a pretty essential freq range for snares as well.

[Random111223]

should I EQ out the 200Hz from one of those drums?

Yes, from the kick. Also compress your drums (if you haven't)

You can also take the kick out. It's all a matter of preference. If you're making house i wouldn't take the kick out. If you're making glitch hop i'd remove it.

[the4thImpulse]

The following advice can (and should) be applied to everything you do in audio including your question here..

Do whatever sounds best to you.

Seriously I can't tell you how you should mix the song, especially without even hearing it myself. Everything you wrote here is a possible way of mixing it so for your own practice try out each method and decide for yourself which one works best for the song. Like 'Random' said dynamic control can help too, you don't want to over-compress or you will lose the punch but a little bit can control those peaks often better than an EQ can. Also try lowering the volume of every track so the master stays well below 0 dB peak,it will make the song quieter but with proper compression and limiting you can easily bring it back up in the mastering process.

[ChocolateChicken]

Do whatever sounds best to you... Also try lowering the volume of every track so the master stays well below 0 dB peak,it will make the song quieter but with proper compression and limiting you can easily bring it back up in the mastering process.

Thanks 4th impulse! I actually can't really do what sounds best for me in this situation because what sounds best is also creating unnecessary peaks in volume. I guess I just need to play around some more.

Compression is the other option, obviously, since compressors reduce audio peaks, but these are huge peaks we're dealing with here, so even light compression on those peaks would sound very shitty in my opinion, as well as make the compression extremely obvious to the listener. I think this is a frequency issue more than anything.

And for the second sentence of yours that I quoted from you, I'm probably just really stupid and I apologize for that, but I'm having trouble understanding what you're getting at. I'm not having problems with clipping, if that's what you mean. I always mix well below 0dB, but reducing the volume of everything wont change the fact that there's a 5dB difference in volume when the kick and snare hit simultaneously.

Yes, from the kick. Also compress your drums (if you haven't)... You can also take the kick out. It's all a matter of preference.

Yeah, the kick and snare are each compressed a little bit to make them more punchy. And I'd really hate to remove the kick, so I suppose I'm going to have to reduce 200Hz from the kick drum in this case. Such a shame, really. :'(

[the4thImpulse]

Yeah, the kick and snare are each compressed a little bit to make them more punchy. And I'd really hate to remove the kick, so I suppose I'm going to have to reduce 200Hz from the kick drum in this case. Such a shame, really. :'(

Again I would hate to tell you what to do without even hearing the track, but, from the sounds of it, I would rather reduce that 200 Hz range from the snare. Snares are far more prominate in the higher frequencies than kicks so I would keep the snare focused there and let the kick punch through in the 200 Hz.

You could also try multiband compression and compress those specific frequencies more the the rest of the sound (maybe you have already, just throwing the idea out there).


I was confused if you meant clipping or not but I understand now.

I actually can't really do what sounds best for me in this situation because what sounds best is also creating unnecessary peaks in volume. I guess I just need to play around some more.

I think its worth asking, if it sounds good to you why exactly is it a problem you must fix?

[Omegastick]

Personally I'd just throw a limiter on there, but that's just me.

[GumsOfGabby]

Try lowering the clashing area on both your kick and snare to free up room, maybe even take out the lower end of the snare with a high pass curve. You could try to ever-so-slightly sidechain the kick to the snare, so when the kick hits, the snare slightly ducks to free up headroom (works better for claps). You could find better fitting samples that don't clash as much. You could also try (on top of everything else) bussing your drums together and limiting the buss to the volume of the loudest instrument (usually the kick) with no attack and a short release. This will stop any left over transients from getting through and the short release time will avoid creating a pumping effect.

If all fails, don't play them simultaneously.

[Seven]

Ok, have never had this problem myself...(I tend to compress the living sh*t out of everything)...but you could have two kick drums alternating. I haven't heard the track, so I assume the problem is that the low frequencies 'overlap'. I'd think a kick to stand for itself and another (perhaps even a copy of the first) with the frequencies balanced with the snare, to play...well...with the snare would do the trick. If that removes from the character; cut from the snare.

Real cheap solution, I know. You'd better listen to post(s) above. Especially GumsOfGabby's.

[Nine Volt]

I've never had this problem, but I suppose you could EQ out 200 hz from the kick. If you wanted, you could automate the EQ so that you're only EQing out 200hz whenever the snare hits.

But listen to the people above, they've pretty much said everything I could say.

[Lavender_Harmony]

Okay, let's have a gander here.

You have a kick and snare, and the problem area is basically around 200Hz. The issue you are facing is a pretty common one, basically frequency masking. 200Hz adds wood to a snare, but you can get away with raising that to around 230-250Hz, but that is entirely up to taste.

Now as it seems, both the kick and snare have material around that area. Firstly, if you want your kicks to sound fuller and have more presence, a small boost somewhere around 100Hz usually does it well in my mixes, and higher than 180 and it's going to interfere with the snare too much, especially if you're working with the current trend of wooden sounding snares. Top end more digital and analog snares not so much.

You describe a huge peak increase when the two hit together around this problem area of 200Hz, which indicates two things. The first, as above, is that they both have material there, and that both of them have too much material there.

My recommendation is to reduce the kick drum at around a 200Hz band, but also reduce the snare a little bit. I'm going to assume the snare you're using is one of these modern 200Hz peak snares, so that area will already be boosted, and once everything is brought into the foreground in your mix, that reduction won't matter as much as the clarity you will gain.

If you still experience problems, there are other tricks you can use. The first is an obvious one, have a seperate kick with a lot of that 200Hz problem area reduced which only hits along with the snare when it needs to. You can achieve something similar with peak modulation on the kick drum, again in the same area. A more advanced approach would be to use a sidechain on a multiband compressor set to activate around 190-210Hz, which will only activate along with the snare, but this might end up sounding a little overly punchy and hyped, depends on the nature of the track really.

[GumsOfGabby]

...and once everything is brought into the foreground in your mix...

Off topic, but would you be able to explain how to do this? Would be very useful.

[ChocolateChicken]

Lot's of text incoming.

I did some more looking around in the frequency analyzer to see if I was missing anything, and it turns out I was; there was a very small presence in the 60 - 140Hz range in the snare sample. But it was so tiny that it wasn't showing up on the frequency analyzer in Logic's EQ until I turned the volume way up to check. So I did a 48dB/oct high pass at 150Hz to the snare, and the giant volume spike was reduced by about 3.5dB, which isn't perfect, but still a HUGE improvement :'D
I also rolled off everything below 30Hz in the kick drum, because that's just unnecessary bass that can't even be played on most commercial subwoofers (right?).

I think its worth asking, if it sounds good to you why exactly is it a problem you must fix?

Well, by that I meant that I liked the kicks to be played with the snares. I should clarify that what doesn't sound good to me is that huge volume increase with snares + kicks, not to mention the fact that it would be a pain to master.

I would rather reduce that 200 Hz range from the snare... I would let the kick punch through in the 200 Hz. You could also try multiband compression and compress those specific frequencies...

Yeah, I think the snare can afford to lose some 200Hz, as Lavender and GumsofGabby also said. And I tried multiband compression like you said and wow, I really should have thought of using one before. It helps a lot in this situation!

Personally I'd just throw a limiter on there, but that's just me.

Nah, omitting all that gain would sound really terrible in this case.

Try lowering the clashing area on both your kick and snare to free up room, maybe even take out the lower end of the snare with a high pass curve. You could try to ever-so-slightly sidechain the kick to the snare, so when the kick hits, the snare slightly ducks to free up headroom (works better for claps). You could find better fitting samples that don't clash as much. You could also try (on top of everything else) bussing your drums together and limiting the buss to the volume of the loudest instrument (usually the kick) with no attack and a short release. This will stop any left over transients from getting through and the short release time will avoid creating a pumping effect. If all fails, don't play them simultaneously.

Also very useful info. Sidechaining was something I didn't even think of in this situation!

---

Seven, Lavender, and Nine Volt each suggested the idea of having a second kick drum without that 200Hz presence to be played with snares. I might do this in the future.

[ChocolateChicken]

200Hz adds wood to a snare, but you can get away with raising that to around 230-250Hz, but that is entirely up to taste.

Now as it seems, both the kick and snare have material around that area. Firstly, if you want your kicks to sound fuller and have more presence, a small boost somewhere around 100Hz usually does it well in my mixes, and higher than 180 and it's going to interfere with the snare too much, especially if you're working with the current trend of wooden sounding snares. Top end more digital and analog snares not so much.

You describe a huge peak increase when the two hit together around this problem area of 200Hz, which indicates that both of them have too much material there.

My recommendation is to reduce the kick drum at around a 200Hz band, but also reduce the snare a little bit. I'm going to assume the snare you're using is one of these modern 200Hz peak snares, so that area will already be boosted, and once everything is brought into the foreground in your mix, that reduction won't matter as much as the clarity you will gain.

If you still experience problems, there are other tricks you can use. The first is an obvious one, have a seperate kick with a lot of that 200Hz problem area reduced which only hits along with the snare when it needs to. You can achieve something similar with peak modulation on the kick drum, again in the same area. A more advanced approach would be to use a sidechain on a multiband compressor set to activate around 190-210Hz, which will only activate along with the snare, but this might end up sounding a little overly punchy and hyped, depends on the nature of the track really.

Yeah, I think it was a mistake on my part to have a high presence in 200Hz in the kick; anything above 160Hz in the low end sounds pretty unnecessary for kicks in general and interferes with snares too much. I moved that 200Hz boost down to 140Hz and then reduced 200Hz. After I did this, there was no longer a problem! Freeing up that 200Hz space in both the kick and snare did help as well, as GumsofGabby and yourself said. Also, sidechaining via multiband compressor sounds like quite an interesting technique, but after all the other advice given, I doubt that will be necessary. I'm keeping that in mind for future projects though.

[Lavender_Harmony]

...and once everything is brought into the foreground in your mix...

Off topic, but would you be able to explain how to do this? Would be very useful.

In short, it's a by-product of your mix, when you place everything in the mix and make sure everything has adequate headroom, the natural overlapping of frequencies pushes things like the main drums and lead into the front of your mix, supported by the hats, pads, guitars, etc, the under-mix if you will. This can be emphasized further in mastering, too.

Also glad to hear you got the mix fixed, yes, multiband compression can be a bit overkill to fix a frequency masking issue, but it can work well in some circumstances.