Stereo Widening?

[Raddons]

I don't want to type any bullshit so I'm getting right to the point, yo.

Is stereo widening an effective practice? I've always used it (along with time based effects) on stuff that are generally low in the mix to give it a spacey feel, so it sounds like it's out there, but still present. Exactly that, occupying a wide range. Also so I can drop things down in level that are too prominent.

Am I doing this "wrong" (I mean, there are no wrongs as long as it sounds good?)? What do you guys do stereo widening on and for what purpose?

I've also read people saying that you shouldn't need stereo widening and pan should be good enough on its own. Any legitimacy to that?

[Thyrai]

I much prefer to use regular panning and mid/side processsing for wider stereo fields. I find that artificial widening (like iZotope) really fucks up your sound more than it helps

[Random111223]

A good rule of thumb is to prefer widening high frequency stuff and avoid widening low-mid and bass sounds. I prefer chorus or reverb to give that stereo effect instead of direct artificial widening

I find that artificial widening really fucks up your sound more than it helps

this

[Motivfs]

A good rule of thumb is to prefer widening high frequency stuff and avoid widening low-mid and bass sounds.

Exactly what he said, I just finished reading a guide not too long ago, and it said that low frequency sounds take up more space so there is no point to widen them, while high frequency sounds don't so you have the option to widen them or not. Of course, don't go nuts with it.

[Nine Volt]

Pretty much along the lines of what the guys above me said. I don't stereo widen, I just use panning, chorus, and maybe unison to give it a wider effect. Also I've heard that you never want to do that to low frequency stuff (stereo widening I mean), I think it makes it more muddy.

[the4thImpulse]

A good rule of thumb is to prefer widening high frequency stuff and avoid widening low-mid and bass sounds.

Exactly what he said, I just finished reading a guide not too long ago, and it said that low frequency sounds take up more space so there is no point to widen them, while high frequency sounds don't so you have the option to widen them or not. Of course, don't go nuts with it.

I will also add when you play a song with a really wide bassline on a mono system (which is most live PA's out there) the bassline will fall far behind the mix as less signal is being summed into the mono mix.

I never use stereo widening plugins, ones that simply widen the sound, I use reverb, echos and multi-voice chorus effects to widen up a sound. I then use a mid side volume tool to cut away some of the presence on either side, it doesn't move the sound.


Know this: there are no rules, if it sounds good then no one can tell you your doing it wrong

[Nine Volt]

Know this: there are no rules, if it sounds good then no one can tell you your doing it wrong

This. So much this.

[itroitnyah]

The panning technique always confused me, because if I clone the synth and then copy the notes from the original, then pan each of the synths to seperate sides, it mostly sounds like it's been loudened more than widened. So for the panning technique do I have to time the notes differently? Like with the copy would I want to put the notes like 1/12th of a second or shorter ahead/behind the original?

[Nine Volt]

I don't exactly know how to do it in FL, but what I do in reason is copy the synth (NOT the notes) and run the original and the copy into a separate mixer, then pan on right and one left, then run back into the actual mixer.

[BinaryBludgeon]

Common rule of thumb for a lot of wideners is not to widen it too much, or the sounds feels flattened and non-existent.

[the4thImpulse]

The panning technique always confused me, because if I clone the synth and then copy the notes from the original, then pan each of the synths to seperate sides, it mostly sounds like it's been loudened more than widened. So for the panning technique do I have to time the notes differently? Like with the copy would I want to put the notes like 1/12th of a second or shorter ahead/behind the original?

This is because of phasing. If you have two sound sources (two synths) with the exact same patch playing at the exact same time but panned left and right it won't sound any different then one source played in the center. The two signals are the same so they sum together perfectly, they increase in volume yes but they don't sound like they are wide because there is no way for your ears to tell the difference between the two sources. If you want the sound your going for you have two options, delay one track (like you did by changing moving the notes a 1/12th of a second), or you can change the synthesis of one of the synths (phasing/ just one oscillator 1-179 degrees can make the difference necessary).

Instead of moving the notes on one track I would use a track delay so the entire track plays off time from the master clock.

[vladnuke]

What's everybodies opinion on stereo separaters? I think it's pretty nice as song as you don't use too much.

[JayB]

For percussive elements (tonal and non-tonal) I use simple panning. Sometimes a ping pong delay does the job, too.
Pads and similar sound I widen with stereo delay and reverb - lots of it.
All others: doubling and panning. Slightly detuning the oscillators of one part should do the rest.

[Lavender_Harmony]

I've never used a stereo widener on a track, I will always use something else to achieve width in my mix. The important thing to note is the signal you use in the left and right ear needs to be different to prevent phasing. Let's look at a few ways to achieve this.

Duplication and panning.

This can be compared to a technique producers use when recording guitars, called double tracking. What you should do with guitars is record the same part twice, two seperate takes, then layer these on top of each other before panning one left and one right. I won't go into huge detail here, but it's the same principle with synth parts, or drums, or anything. However the key is to make the sound different for each part, as the guitar part not only has slightly different timing, but the timbre of each played note will be different from the original. Be it a different velocity curve on the filter, a totally different filter, a different distortion plugin, even using two slightly different drum kits can have a huge impact on your mix. This is my most common technique, as it usually leads to further creativity and can make my mix stand out.

Sample Delay

This is a simple one, and can be slightly cheap sounding, but works well in some cases. There are two ways to accomplish this, the first is to use a sample delay plugin, which will delay the L and R channels by a few ms. The second is to duplicate the channel, and move it just a tiny little bit, and have them panned L and R. Like I say, this isn't great sounding, but it can work in some cases.
A slightly different approach to a similar effect is to have two bus channels, each panned left and right, have a chorus on both, but on one channel delay the signal ever so slightly by a few ms. then send your channel to those two bus' (grouped, if possible, makes controlling the level much easier) and you end up with a very bright, full sounding choral split, which is great for guitar and vocal tracks.

Split Bus Reverb

This is my most used, and personally I think it sounds the best. The process is a little complicated, but should be manageable. The principle is to have two different reverbs, with slightly different tonalities to them (Convolution is best for this) and have them panned either way, then you want to split your signal into it's left and right components, and send them to their respective Bus channels, for L and for R. It does take a little bit of fiddling in the mixer, but the results are worth it.


The key things to remember are really just keep your bass in the centre, don't apply too much stereo width to mid-range material, and widen some of the upper elements. However, don't widen everything as this can really cause chaos in the high end frequencies, and doesn't sound good. Use that stereo field wisely, and always keep in mind, there is room to put stuff in the middle, and if you move everything out of the centre, it's going to sound hollow and awkward.

[ph00tbag]

I'm going to stridently endorse the briefest of stereo delay in tandem with panning if you want to create "true" positioning of your sounds. Why? Because stereo delay on the interval of a couple of milliseconds is what actually happens in any animal that utilizes binaural location for determining sound direction. Simple panning only imitates half of the way your ears interpret the direction of sound, and actually can create distortions based on one channel arriving at the opposite ear inverted and filtered through the head a couple milliseconds after the quieter panned sound.

Ultimately, what real nerds do is process each channel with it's own timing, intensity, reverb and filter, to mimic the way a sound would arrive at either eardrum after passing through the pinnae, body and head. Some may even process a sound so it sounds like it's coming from the right in a reflective room, but you're covering your right ear.

Human ears are weird.

NB: as has been said, for most low end sounds, you don't really need a whole lot of stereo processing or panning, for the reasons 4thImpulse and Motivfs gave.

[Raddons]

Yeah, bass in the center has always been something I've been good with. I honestly never widen things except pads and vocals, but after seeing Lav's wonderful post, I'm going to play with those techniques a bit. I'm actually familiar with double tracking, as I'm a guitarist I'll try and put that into application in other instances too. The split bus reverb sounds interesting.

Thanks all! It's always nice to see input from others.

[Motivfs]

I haven't done the sample delay yet, but the panning and reverb really make my kicks and claps stand out on a current WIP I have, whereas before they were just fighting with the synths, which is something I was getting frustrated about.

Definitely helped me out a bit.

[XXDarkShadow79XX]

It's something that I usually don't do. So you should probably do it. Just be careful and NEVER stereo widen low end. I've always been more about having the sounds fit together like a perfect little puzzle instead of having them all over the place. Still, stereo widening is something you should try. I can't say I would want to make it a practice, but that's really up to you and how you want your music to sound.

[cyrricky]

As stated above, artificial widening fucks things up. If you want a good wide sound, use reverb or chorus and some EQ

[GhostXb]

I don't use widening too often, but I do particularly like it on guitars. Acoustic guitars just feel nice with some stereo widening, or delays and reverbs on them. Electric guitars really stick out when you play around with panning different amp sounds to each channel. I do it all the time with Guitar Rig Pro.

ON the topic of bass stereo widening and panning, for the most part I would agree, however, experimenting lead me to make this song with a panned bass track. I've been told that it sounds pretty neat, and I tried making it mono, but it just didn't have as much of an effect.

http://soundcloud.com/ghostxb/an-act-of-freedom

I also have the acoustic guitar here with some stereo widening effects. I actually wasn't sure if I got to carried away with it here or not, maybe you can be the judge?